light the abuses suffered at# a fertility clinic at Yale.

Lisa Desjardins has our conversation.

LISA DESJARDINS: The podcast# series is call And it probes a story with many layers,# including how women can medicine and how they can doubt their own# experiences.

At the center is a fertility## clinic at Yale University.

In 2020, a# nurse there secretly replaced vials of## an opioid use to reduce pain during# egg retrievals with saline solution.

That meant the women felt the entire procedure,## some describing excruciating agony, while# the clinic downplayed or ignored Susan Burton is the host of "The Retrievals" and## reported this series for The New# York Times and Serial Susan, thank you for joining us.

The nurse involved named Donna al l the time, she was stealing fentanyl to feed# her own addiction.

Still, she was watching these## women, allowing this woman to be in pain.# And not only that.

She was gaslighting them.

Here's what one of the women# you talked to told you.

ALLISON, Patient: Next thing I remember is# waking up in the r in quite a bit of pain, a lot more pain than I# ever would have expected for an egg retrieval.

And Donna was my nurse.

And I remember asking her## if it's normal to be in that much pain.# And she looked a LISA DESJARDINS: What did these women actually# go through, versus what were they bei SUSAN BURTON, Host, "The Retrievals": Sure.

So, first of a the women were undergoing a procedure called# an egg retrieval, where eggs the body and then either fertilized or# frozen, depending on what you're doing.

The clinic set an expectation that# the women might experience moderate## discomfort with this procedure.

But what# they described to me was feeling severe,## unexpected pain either during# or after the procedure.

And in the absence of accurate# information about what happened to them,## right, because the nurse was keeping a# secret that she was stealing fentanyl,## many of the women blamed themselves or# thought this is just what women go through.

LISA DESJARDINS: And many of# the women that you talked to,## most of them, in fact, did end up havin However, their experience is still being## dismissed.

Here's what another one# of the women told you about that.

ESHA, Patient: After I delivered, I went in# for my six-week postpartum my doctor.

And it somehow came up in conversation# that I was part of this suit that was going on.

And she looked at me and she said: "Well, what's# the big deal?

I mean, you ended up pregnant."

LISA DESJARDINS: You have such command of# choice of wording throughout this podcast,## and you call that kind of thing an act of erasure.

What did you learn about the way# medicine sees pain in women and## especially pain that might be# related to having children?

SUSAN BURTON: Yes, I mean, one of the things# that was so interest the way that pain had been normalized around# this egg retrieval procedure at this clinic.

I came to see the fact that doctors# and nurses at this clinic it almost## expected that patients would# feel some pain.

That was one## of the reasons that the nurse was able# to hide what she was doing for An d when we talk about pain being ignored, we# often think of like going to a doctor and saying,## I'm feeling this pain and the doctor dismissing# us.

But not treating pain adequately in the first## place is another way of dismissing pain,# another way of saying, it doesn't matter.

LISA DESJARDINS: And you believe that# that's particular to them being women?

SUSAN BURTON: I think that women's# pain is definitely dismi and treated differently than men's pain.

And that has to do with historical and# cultural expectations around wome that we are hysterical, that we are# unreliable narrators of our own symptoms.

LISA DESJARDINS: Now, the nurse# involved here did -- was sentenced## ultimately to eight days in prison.

She# did also surrender her nursing license.

Now, you were not able to speak to her# on the record and or anyone around her.## How did you go about balancing her# story -- she has her own addiction## story that she presented in court# -- with that of the other women?

SUSAN BURTON: That was a very complicated# question for me And, ultimately, what I decided to do was,# the nurse herself told her own story in court## documents, and her friends and family told# their own stories about what happened to the## nurse also in court documents in character# reference letters they wrote to the judge.

So that was -- that was the# storytelling that I was able to do to## allow her to explain what# happened from her perspective.

LISA DESJARDINS: And what was her story?

SUSAN BURTON: She a lot of stress around his# caretaking of the children.

And it ultimately ended up being really# thematically relevant to the series,## because what happened was, at her criminal# sentencing, part of the re such a light sentence was that the judge was# taking her status as a mother into consideration.## If the nurse had gone to prison, her ex-husband# likely would have gotten custody of the children.

This was a very painful irony for many of the# patients who were observers for this, because,## of course, they were at this clinic# because they wanted to have children,## have become parents, become mothers.

LISA DESJARDINS: Since the podcast# aired, w SUSAN BURTON: Of course, yes, I mean,# this podcast has really hit a nerve.

I have heard from hundreds of listeners, not# only fertility patients, but just patients## who've had all kinds of experience of# unacknowledged or inadequately treated## pain in medical settings, ranging in age# from teenagers to women in their 70s,## pain from inadequately -- pain from IUD# insertions, birth trauma, all kinds of things.

LISA DESJARDINS: Susan Burton, thank you for the## many layers that you have looked at# in this podcast.

We apprecia SUSAN BURTON: Thank you.# And thank you for having me.