Welcome back to OTR.

Getting the state budget done on time could be or maybe not.

In studio, former Republican state attorney general and former candidate for governor Bill Schuette is with us.

So sit in with us as we get the inside out.

Off the Record.

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And now this edition of Off the Record, with Tim Skubick.

Thank you very much.

Welcome back to studio C, another edition of Off the Record Were you surprised by what Mr.

Trump did this week?

Vis-a-vi the governor's race yay or nay?

In endorsing John James?

Maybe.

Yes, a little bit.

Just.

Yes, a little bit?

Well, it's just the timing.

I mean.

The answer is yes.

Yes.

Beth.

Yes.

I think that, like Kyle said, the timing was very.

Sometime I feel like he has not come in with the best timing for some of his endorsements.

And this one was righ before absentee voting starts.

It was pretty well planned.

Yeah, absolutely.

I talked to a lot of Republicans on Mackinac, and they said they thought he was going to sit it out.

Now, the question now is, does he endorse another Republican candidate like it in South Carolina, where he had two choices?

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, let's see what was going on.

Here' the aftermath of that decision.

Leave it to Presiden Donald Trump to completely set the Republican primary race for governor in Michigan on its ear, other candidates Perry Johnson and Mike Co hoped for the Trump endorsement, as did Ari Nisbett, who's now bailed out.

He was polling so badly that I think this gives him a good excuse to get out.

Mr.

Cox was no laughing when he heard the news about the Trump endorsement, but he called it just another campaign day.

And he was in this thing to the finish line.

Meanwhile, millionaire Perry Johnson, who has pumped over $15 million of his own money into this race, is probably not about to drop out.

He was on the campaign trail right after the announcement from the president.

The Trump endorsement is considered solid gold in the Republican primary election.

Good news for Mr.

James.

But in the general election, where independent voters and not Republicans will decide the outcome, Mr.

Ballenger says If he's th Republican nominee in November, I don't think it, helps him at all.

In fact, I think it'll hurt it.

And four years ago, Tudor Dixon did get the Trump endorsement and did win the Republican primary and went on to lose to Governo Gretchen Whitmer by ten points.

Mr.

Ballenger thinks, however, Mr.

Cox and Mr.

Johnson can attack Mr.

James for his alleged lack of experience with state issues such as education and the state budget.

Could that trump the Trump endorsement?

There is a possibility, yes, I think it is long.

The odds are long, but it could be done.

The James camp obviously argues he can win this thing in November.

All right, so, Beth, analyze.

Well, I thought it was interesting that they said John James doesn't have experience with state issues.

I don't know that Perry Johnson does either, but.

Neither did Rick Snyder.

That's true.

Thats true.

Neither did George Romney.

Right.

Well, are you going back a little ways?

I remember Mitt Romney, but, but yeah, these were executives.

These were people who came from business.

They didn't come from state government.

But anyway, I'm sorry I interrupted.

No, no.

You're good.

Yeah.

I mean, I think, you know, it is true that, folks with the Trump endorsement have not had that much luck i general elections in Michigan.

But in order to get to a general election, you have to get through the primary.

And that is seems to be a ticket so far in Michigan to get through the primary.

Well, I think that Trump can't help himself.

He has to feel like he's the big dog in the Republican Party, and he has to weigh in to try and assist whoever he thinks is going to make the general election and who he thinks is going to be the best general election nominee.

Going up against the Democra will probably be Jocelyn Benson.

So he gets in now and and yeah, I mean, the timing makes I guess, if you think about it sounds.

But this time he's never really made any sense.

He endorsed Tudor Dixon a week or two before the, polls closed in August.

So to do it right before absentee ballots goes out makes a lot of sense, because people are can vote as soon as this weekend.

Well, he endorsed a guy in the Iowa governor's race at th last minute, and that guy lost.

And that's one of the few endorsements he's made where his candidate didn't make it.

So I think there may be a lesson learned that I need to get in early, and I need to get in when it matters.

But if you if you read the polling, this race is pretty close and I haven't seen anything that suggests that he has a special affinity for John James.

So I'd love to know wh he picked John James now, but, but this is kind of the devil' bargain.

I think Bill's right.

This gets you the nominatio on the on the Republican side, but in the general election this could be a real lodestone.

Well the beautiful part of this story is that for weeks and months around this table, the popular wisdom was, he's not going to get this endorsement because Mr.

Trum wanted him to stay in Congress so they could maintain control and Donald Trump is the kind of guy who likes to get even.

And then out of the blue, he turns that on his ear.

So much for the popular wisdom.

Yeah, but now he's he's endorsing, Paxton in Texas, which puts that seat in play, this notion that he's trying to protect himself against impeachment, to try and be productiv in the second half of his term.

He seems to be doing what Trump wants to do now, which I think is what Trump has always done.

There must be somethin about John James that he likes, or there must be somebody who said, Mr.

President, this is our guy.

You got to get on board.

Otherwise it's not going to go well.

You know, he he was concerned that that 10th district was going to flip to the Democrats.

And he must now have a comfort level with Michael Bouchard, who is the son of the Oakland County sheriff who's running in that seat, he got an endorsement too.

Yeah, Trump endorsed him basically at the same time.

So there must be a comfort level now that Bouchard can do it.

And so Trump is now satisfied and believes that John James is the bes Republican to win in November.

I so how did Mr.

Cox and Johnson take on Mr.

James?

Well, think that's part of the dynamic that's interesting here is that, Perry Johnson has had is is some of his biggest supporters, the Maddocks, who are very close to Trump in and likely were recommending Perry Johnson to Trump for an endorsement.

You think?

And now we're saying that Trump obviously received bad advice in endorsing John James.

So I think that is going to be an interesting dynamic to watch going forward.

And, you know, to to come out against, or to, to to win this primary, I think it's going to it's going to take some pretty creative campaigning.

I think the Maddocks may have lost a little bit of their prestige with Trump because he supported them in the, in the state Republican Part leadership race and didn't win.

And, you know, Trump doesn't like people who don't win.

So, so I think Perry may have picked the wrong sensei in this race, but what they're going to do is they're going to attack James.

He's a no show guy.

He doesn't show up for votes in Congress.

He hasn't been at debates.

He doesn't come to Michigan.

He lives in Macomb County.

Then he lives in Western Michigan.

Where is this guy?

What's he doing?

And, one of the things I ask each of the Republican candidates was, is there a way that you can win without Trump's endorsement?

And each of them said, I'm going to get Trump' endorsement while they didn't.

So now let's see if they have an answer to that question because I haven't heard it yet.

Well, don't underestimate Mike Cox.

I think Mike Cox is loaded and hasn't fired yet, but there's going to be stuff about China outsourcing to China.

A la DeVos way back in the day, and other issues that h thinks can be used against him.

How much money does he have?

You know, and that's the question how much money does he have to spend on TV?

I mean, he's not like Perry Johnson, who has seemingly endless amounts of money.

I mean, there is a limit to what he can do.

And if he can't match Perry Johnson, blow for blow.

And I got to say, Perry Johnson's ads have gotten a lot better since the beginning of this year.

You like the one walking around the neighborhood with no coat and tie?

I mean, I actually like that one.

He looks a lot more human He doesn't look like Mr.

Burns.

Yeah, I mean, he actually looks like a real person.

Expensive jeans.

Well, yeah, I bet to that.

Yeah, I bet you that.

Yeah, I bet.

So they didn't come from Meijer.

But, you know, he he actually looks like a real person.

The ads have soften him up a bit.

But I don't know if Mike Co has has that kind of money to go blow for blow with Perry Johnson and then without the Trump endorsement.

Yeah, it' just going to be hard for him.

Well that's what happens with the fundraising now.

So whatever you do with your polling and whatever you've already spent, this is where peopl are going to write you a check.

Says white chumps with the other guy.

I don't know if I want to spend some good money after bad.

I think it really does hurt with the fundraising, and Cox has put some of his own money into the race, but nobody's got Perry Johnson money.

Well, what about Mr.

Ballenger's point that it's wonderful and great to have this endorsement in the August thing, but November, where independent voters make the decisio and that's a different ballgame.

Yeah.

I mean, I think this is this is what he's confronted Republicans for several years now, the post-primary pivot that they have to make in in order to.

Or lack of same?

Sometimes they don't pivot.

Well and to their detriment.

I mean, Michigan is is a stat that consistently has been swung one way or the other by independent voters by that middle of the road voter.

And you have to capture that in order to win a race.

The question is, can you wal away from a Trump endorsement?

You need to get to November.

What's the price of gas in October?

I think that's the answer I don't know.

Yeah.

Hopefully lower.

Can you walk?

I'm sorry.

Can you walk away from a Trump endorsement?

Yeah I, no.

Not successfully.

No, I don't think so.

Because as soon as he starts, what's the response?

Look, you know, it doesn't even really matter if he'd gotten the Trump endorsement at all because they would still tied him to Trump.

There's still plenty of video of John James and Donald Trump together that if the Democrats feel like that's going to help them as far as polling goes, they're just going to run it anyway.

It doesn't really matter.

Donald Trump is going to be there whether Perry Johnson or Mike Co is the gubernatorial candidate.

And, the Democrats, they feel like they got something with them are going to pound on it.

I bring us up to date, if you can, quickly on the budget.

Here we sit.

And so if you can I right now we are advancing the deadline to the deadline or a statutory deadline that frankly, the legislature has blown past before July 1st.

They say they have a framework in place, which means in my mind, a top line number.

And, you know, this idea that they won't pull from the rainy day fund or they won't implement new taxes, but a lot of the details are still to be determined.

Just yesterday, Matt Hall was saying that they still did not have targets, that they were hoping to get them that day, but it's been it's been a while that they've been looking at targets and and trying to pull this together.

So with the 4th of July holiday coming, we'll we'll see what they're able to do.

If somebody explain this to me, it seems to be in the framework agreement.

Mr.

Hall got virtually everything he wanted and the governor got zip.

Unless it was something written into that agreement that we don't know about.

Is that a fair analysis?

He didn't want a tax increase, no right money, rainy day fund going in and a smaller state budget.

Yeah, but we don't know what they're actually going to spend the money on.

I think that's the key.

I mean, and that's why I think the Democrats have an edge.

The the other issue, though, too, is that the Democrats haven't really wante to talk about the budget at all, whereas Hall is very excited to share his wins right now publicly.

I mean, Winnie Brinks has not been as, verbose as he hasn't been this whole term.

So it's not like she's out of character or anything, but she doesn't like to share the details of things to the medi until after the cake is baked.

And likewise, the governor isn't really interested in the budget either.

She's kind of turned the reins over to the budget director, Jen Flood, and it's kind of doing her own thing.

So and so.

Jen Flood isn't like out in front of the media either.

It's not like, you know, Matt Hall does his weekly press conferences become kind of old hat.

So.

Well, looks like the Republicans are doing very well.

It's because it's the guy framing framing the information for us.

So of course it looks good.

They see to him the entire playing field.

It's like playing football against yourself okay.

You're going to win?

Yeah I mean Mat Hall is a different kind of cat.

I think nobody's going to dispute that.

But one of the things I really like about him is he'l answer any question, you know?

And I think you you tend to get what's on his mind.

Now, is that something that's subject to change?

Is there is there a stratagem going on there.

But it's it's sort of like Trump as a reporter, you know, people is perceived people preferred Obama and people prefer preferred Biden.

To me, I prefer the guy who answers questions and is available.

We have a governor who's inaccessible.

She's she's behind the behind the the moat, behind the the big gate.

And, and Matt is there.

And when there's a vacuum, he fills it.

Well, this whole gambit about.

I'm going to negotiate with Winnie Brinks and ignore the governor.

I mean, did you all see through that?

You knew what the thing was going to come?

They're going to do something that he would stand up and say see, my brilliant negotiation.

I smoked them out.

When this thing is finally done and when it's finally the cake is finally baked, the Democrat will have their talking points, and we'll have a great list of things that that they also got out of this budget.

And you'll think, wow, the Democrats did fantastic in this budget.

We just don't know what that is yet, including $4.3 billion in pork.

Mr.

Melinn, could you imagine if they actually did that for point?

That's everybody's request.

If you take all the legislators together, add up all their pork reports together, it's a fifth of the 5 of the budget, 5% of the budget.

If they actually did it all.

I predict it won't be that high.

However, let's call in Bill Schuette and talk about this and related issues.

Mr.

Schuette.

Mr.

Schuette.

Welcome back to the Off the Record seat.

You haven't been there for a while.

Well, the seat is still warm, but, Thank you.

It's great to be her and, good to be with you, Kyle.

And Beth.

and M. L. Alright let's cut to the chase.

Who's your candidate for governor?

You know, we have a lot of great, Republican candidates.

I guess thats going to be a no, right?

Hear me out.

I just got to clear my throat and say good morning, but, we have great Republican candidates.

And John James, I think, you know, Donald Trump may have punched his ticket, and it may carry him through.

But if Perry Johnson pummels John James does that mean Mike Cox, scoots through?

It's hard to say, but I know John James.

He's a great guy.

Outstanding congressman.

Mike Cox, my predecessor as attorney general.

And Perry Johnson.

You know, he is, he's got Bongo bucks is, one of you mentioned here.

So we'll see what happens.

If you have to plunk today, who would you vote for?

You know, I'm going to, contemplate that.

I'm going to talk with these guys.

Plus, you know, it's 60 days left to go, so we got plenty of time Tim.

Mr.

Schuette, you were the Republican nominee in 2018 and did get the Trump endorsement.

What does the Trump endorsement mean to a candidate that maybe we don't see?

You know, I think it's, it's gold, to be sure.

And, for the most part it carries the day, so to speak.

And, you know it cuts a little bit both ways.

But the difference and I love the bearded Bill Ballenger.

But, the the issue in 2026 versus 2018 is that we've had the experience of the Democrats, putting in, you know, candidates who just weren't any good, Biden and Harris.

And now the Democrats are held captive by the AOC, Democrats, socialists, Mamdani folks.

So I think 2026 can be a great year.

We're going to win the governorship.

Doug Lloyd is going to be the next attorney general and Forlini is going to be secretary of state.

So I think we're going to, sweep the table.

You you went through that when when you were attorney general, you went through the the convention process for your nomination.

There's talk now of changing that process, moving it to a primary.

Where do you stand on that?

Do you think that's a good path forward for for that role in particular?

I do, and I've been an advocate for that for some time.

I think we ought to move up, the date of selecting the Secretary of state and attorney general do it in a primary, but do it in June, because when you have it in August, you go throug the sharpness of the campaign.

You don't have enough time to kiss and make up.

And then it's Labor Day and boom, then the November is upon you.

So if we could have the summer to kind of patch things up after spirited primaries, I think it's a good way.

And it gets it's more participative democracy.

And I think it's a good approach.

I hope it passes.

Now, I don't think anybody likes the convention where you don't know what's really going on.

The rules are different for each party and you may not know who the nominees are, but when you move it up and when you make it a competitive race, doesn' that give a built in advantage to the most well-funded candidates, the most establishment candidates, the people who can come into the race with a lot of money and a lot of connections?

You know, that's going to happen anyway or not, whether it's in August or it's in June.

So I really I don't I respectfully disagree on that.

I think it gets people involved.

And the more people participating in democracy, the better.

From my standpoint.

Here's your problem.

There are groups within the Republican Party and the Democratic Party who like to anoint people.

Let's talk about unions, okay?

Why would they want to give up that power, Mr.

Schuette?

Well, that's part of the argument that needs to be made.

And the fact is, is that let's open up, let's have transparency.

And that's the argument, transparency.

What does that benefit to the UAW?

Well, you know.

It's not.

They can't deliver a nomination for somebody.

Well, my point is let's have transparency.

And that's the argument.

And if, some outside groups want to, you know, have a, shielded and, in secret, I don't thin that'll carry the day in 2026.

I think the times have changed.

Mr.

Schuette you had just mentioned earlier that you were very bullish about the Republicans chances in 2026.

What do you think are the top issues that Republicans can campaign o and be successful in November?

I think, and specifically with respect to the attorney general raised the fact, if you worried about Dana Nessel as Attorney General Eli Savit going to give you a heart attack, this is a guy who wants to catch and release, abandoned law enforcement, legalized prostitution, everyone you know, chewing on psychedelic mushrooms, that is not going to work across the state of Michigan.

Doug Lloyd is an experienced guy, a seasoned, mature, and understands the rule of law.

So he's going to win this and Forlini with a big base in Macomb County.

He's going to win.

But if your top of the ticket fails, though.

I mean if you're top of the ticket fail just history shows that, you AG nominee is going to struggle if your top and ticket gets 40, 45% of the vote.

Well, here's the key.

You know, Michigan has a history of a couple terms.

Democrat, couple terms Republican.

I thought I could break that.

If I can't do it I don't think anybody is going to.

And it is.

Now it's time for a change and we're going to have a Republican governor.

Whether it's John James or anybody else.

When you look at the Senate race, which is is a huge one, National Rogers Rogers is going to win it.

Yeah.

Well he looks good in the i the Republican primary for sure.

But when you look at the Democratic side, is there a candidat that you think Republicans favor and give Rogers the best chance to win in November?

You know, I think Mike's just going to win anyway.

He came so very close.

And I like the fact what he's doing, making sure that we're going to protect the American auto worker by not having Chinese cars, coming to Michigan.

And, we ought to support our American manufacturers.

China is, you know, tilts everything towards them.

And so I like Mike Rogers saying not across the Gordie Howe Bridge.

Well, that would suggest that you probably don't want Haley Steven to win the Democratic nomination because he's really pushed her, role in the auto bailout and her, her, her relationship with autoworkers.

Whereas the other candidate, El-Sayed, got the UAW, nomination, but, but the other candidate don't seem to be as closely aligned with American manufacturing as Stevens.

You know, I think that, the Democratic Party today, I don't thin Bill Clinton would recognize it.

I don't even think Barack Obama would recognize it.

It's held captive by the Democrats, Socialist, Mamdani, AOC, the squad.

And they have left the, the rest of the Democratic Party behind.

So I think Mike Rogers of, approach and aggressiveness in, you know, Doug Lloyd and our Republican governo candidate, we're going to win.

I'm I'm I'm optimistic.

I'm, you know, with your permission to follow up on Kyle' first question to you, was Mr.

Trump a liability to you in that November election?

Did he cost you that election?

No, I don't think he did.

How do you know?

Well, I just you know, right here.

Well if the endorsement was solid gold.

It turned to nothing?

You know, but here's the issue.

In 2018, we had losses of huge magnitude across the country.

And it was the midterm.

And that was that's what caused the problems in 2018 in Michigan and across the land.

Well how did you do with independent voters?

I mean, obviously you didn't get enough?

Well, if you if you get 5 plus one, then you then you win.

That didn't happen.

But it was because of the midterms.

And Republicans across the country lost control of the Unite States House of Representatives.

That's what happened.

What can Trump do to help the nominee, whoever it is on the Republican side?

Because I think it is gold in the primary.

But with his approval ratings, and we're now seeing independents are running from Trump, we're even seeing some of his traditional, undereducated white males abandoning Trump because of the price of gas and the tariffs and things like that.

What can Trum do to be more of an asset once the general election starts?

Well, Tim used the football analogy and it is early in the game, so to speak, a lot of activity between now and November.

I think it will determine on, gas prices.

I think you're correct on that.

And the war.

Did we win the war?

Did we stop, Iran's nuclear, capability?

Did we?

Well, this it's still yet to be determined.

You know, Vance is in Switzerland trying to work this through.

You dont think Iran is running the clock on this?

It's 60 days this time.

30 days for next time.

40 days the next time.

Pretty soon you're past the election.

Well, we'll see on that.

I guess that an answer to your question about what can Trump do?

I think it's going to be an issue on gas prices and, the war.

Mr.

Schuette one of the questions that voters are going to have in November is to approve a constitutional convention.

Do you thin that a constitutional convention would give the state an opportunity to make some of the changes you suggested earlier within early or primary direct vote in the primary for attorney general, Secretary of state?

Is that is that a good idea for them to vote yes on?.

No.

The I think a constitutiona convention, is a is a bad idea.

Constitution of 1963.

Let's, you know, tweak it with respect to, you know, the primary issue.

And also, we have to do something about the university trustee issue.

You know, there are 15 public universities in the state of Michigan.

12 are appointed by the governor, Michigan, Michigan State, Wayne State should have that same approach.

Okay.

You know, your son is working on that issue.

Have you advised him.

He's his own guy.

He doesn't come to you and dad, what should I do?

And he's he's he's independent.

He, I like westerns, Tim and, Louis L'amours.

He's got a he know he has to saddle his own bronc.

He cuts his own path.

He, he makes his own decisions.

And, you know, I'm proud of him.

My wife and I are proud of our son and our daughter and the new grandson.

Thanks for asking.

This week, Attorney General Dana Nessel released what is, I think, the second to last report in in the investigation into the dioceses in Michigan and clergy abuse.

I started that as you may recall.

Yeah.

So you started that.

I think it's one of your only investigations or case that's still ongoing right now.

What do you think about the way that has played out?

Well, you know, I've, I'v tried to show restraint about, my successor as attorney general, but the fact is, we need a mature, stable, attorney general respects the rule of law and the Constitution.

We don't have that now.

And the delay in some of these issues that you raised.

Beth.

Sadly, way too long.

That' why Doug Lloyd is is one reason.

Another reason Doug Lloyd is going to be the next attorney general.

You feel that investigation has gone on too long?

Yeah, I would, yes.

What kind of marks do you give Governor Whitmer?

I say this with, with sadness, and F. Because Michigan is in the toilet, we have the the leaders, elected officials in Michigan have driven our state to the very bottom.

44th and education slowes economic growth in the country.

Did she do that with the help of a Republican legislature?

No.

No.

And the point is the the failure of the Whitmer administration to grow Michigan.

And I'm an optimist, but there's a risk here if we're not careful, Michigan will be a larger Rhode Island where people g to Newport, like to go to Harbor Springs, but jobs, investments, won't happen.

We need to cut income taxes.

We need to cut property taxes.

And the governor should apply for that federal tax credit to give parents more choice in education.

What are you running for?

Nothing today.

But I'm young.

And you'll call me, right?

Yes, I will, it's good to see you.

Thanks for showing up.

It's great to be here.

Thank you.

Also, our thanks for our great panel.

More Off the Record next week.

See you there.

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