>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> I HAVE NO GUARANTEES THAT THE PIECE IS GOING TO HOLD.

>> TRUMP NETANYAHU FACE TO FACE AT THE WHITE HOUSE.

A LOOK AT THIS CRITICAL MEETING, WHAT IT MEANS FOR THE WAR, AND THE WORLD.

THEN, DEATH AND DESPAIR IN SUDAN, I SPEAK TO A DOCTOR ON THE GROUND ABOUT THE INNOCENT LIVES CAUGHT IN A SPIRAL OF IRAN'S.

>>> AND -- >> YOU DON'T REMEMBER?

>> REMEMBER WHAT?

>> YOU REALLY DON'T REMEMBER?

>> "NICKEL BOYS" DIRECTOR JOINS ME ON HIS FILM NAVIGATING THE JIM CROW SOUTH.

>>> PLUS, ELON MUSK'S TWO WEEKS IN WASHINGTON.

THE NEW YORK'S TIMES REPORTER TALKS TO HARI SREENIVASAN ABOUT THE BILLIONAIRES ATTEMPTS TO CHANGE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

♪ >>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, SYLVIA A ANNE SIMON B PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, MARK J BLACKNER, THE PHILIP M DOUG FOUNDATION, SETON GK MELVIN, THE PETER G PETERSON AND JOAN COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM, PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KATZ, ANNA BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION, FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME INTO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I AM IN NEW YORK CITY, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

THE FUTURE OF THE ISRAEL-HAMAS WAR HANGS IN THE BALANCE AS PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU MEETS PRESIDENT TRUMP AT THE WHITE HOUSE TODAY.

IT IS A HIGH-STAKES MOMENT WITH PHASE ONE OF THE CEASE-FIRE STILL HOLDING, BUT NO GUARANTEE THAT PHASE TWO WILL BE REACHED.

TRUMP , JUST BACK IN THE WHITE HOUSE, APPEARS TO HAVE MAJOR INFLUENCE OVER NETANYAHU, BUT HOW FAR THAT EXTENDS IS STILL UNKNOWN.

THE U.S. PRESIDENT IS EAGER TO SEE THE WAR OVER, WHILE NETANYAHU, FOR VARIOUS REASONS, MIGHT BE INTENT ON CONTINUING THE FIGHT.

THE MILITARY ANALYST WHO, IN HIS LATEST PIECE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS, ASKS THE QUESTION, CAN NETANYAHU SURVIVE WITHOUT WAR?

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM, FROM TEL AVIV.

IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

YOU SAY THIS MAY BE THE MOST IMPORTANT MEETING BETWEEN AN ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER AND AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT, IN DECADES.

EXPLAIN WHAT IS AT STAKE, HERE?

>> ALMOST EVERYTHING.

WE ARE AT THE MIDST OF A 16 MONTH WAR WITH HAMAS, WE HAVE STARTED WITH THE HORRIFIC EVENTS OF OCTOBER 7th.

WE WENT THROUGH HEZBOLLAH IN LEBANON, WE SWAPPED ARROWS WITH IRAN, AS WELL.

NOTHING HAS BEEN RESOLVED, YET.

IT IS TRUE, THE FACT THAT TRUMP WAS, IN FACT, ELECTED PRESIDENT, ALREADY HELPED TO MOVE THINGS ALONG AND ALREADY PUSHED FOR A CEASE-FIRE, WHICH WAS AN AGREEMENT THAT WAS SIGNED ON JANUARY 19th.

AND WE ARE ALREADY, AS YOU MENTIONED, IN PHASE ONE OF THE CEASE-FIRE AND HOSTAGE DEAL.

THAT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, BUT NOBODY KNOWS WHERE THIS IS HEADING.

WE STILL DON'T KNOW -- WE COULD REACH A LONG-TERM CEASE-FIRE, A FULL-SCALE HOSTAGE DEAL, WHAT WOULD BE THE NATURE OF THE REGIME IN GAZA AFTER HAMAS WAS NOT EXACTLY DEFEATED, BUT AFTER THE RELATIVE ISRAELI ADMINISTRATIONS SUCCESS AGAINST HAMAS, SO THERE IS A LOT TO BE DECIDED.

I AM NOT SURE EVERYTHING WILL BE DECIDED NOW, BUT THERE IS A LOT TO BE DECIDED DURING THE NEXT FEW HOURS AND NEXT FEW DAYS.

>> WELL, IF WE ARE TO TAKE A PRESIDENT TRUMP AT HIS WORD, BOTH NOW AND DURING THE CAMPAIGN, IT APPEARS THAT HE WILL PRESSURE PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU TO END THIS WAR TO MAKE SURE ALL OF THESE HOSTAGES COME HOME.

IN PARTICULAR, HE IS FOCUSED ON BRINGING THE AMERICAN HOSTAGES, AS WELL.

NOW, TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN, THEY WOULD HAVE TO IMPLEMENT PHASE TWO AND PHASE THREE OF THIS DEAL.

HOW CAN WE EXPECT PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU TO RESPOND, IF THAT DEMAND IS DICTATED BY PRESIDENT TRUMP?

>> WHAT WE SAW IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS IS THAT NETANYAHU HAS A MUCH HARDER TIME AVOIDING TRUMP THEN HE DID BIDEN.

DURING PRESIDENT BIDEN'S TERM, NETANYAHU, TIME AND TIME AGAIN, MISLED BIDEN AND DELAYED ANY KIND OF DECISION REGARDING THE HOSTAGE DEAL.

ONCE TRUMP WAS ELECTED, AND ONCE HE ANNOUNCED IN DECEMBER THAT THIS WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, TO PUSH FORWARD WITH THE HOSTAGE DEAL, IT WAS QUITE CLEAR THAT NETANYAHU COULD NOT DELAY TRUMP USING THE SAME OLD TRIPS.

TRUMP, FROM AN ISRAELI PURPOSE PERSPECTIVE IS ALL MOST A FORCE OF NATURE RIGHT NOW.

HE IS GETTING THINGS DONE.

AND RIGHT NOW, HE IS PUSHING THE HEADS TOWARD PHASE TWO OF THE DEAL.

AND OF COURSE, THIS PUTS NETANYAHU IN A VERY DIFFICULT POSITION, BETWEEN A ROCK AND A HARD PLACE, IF YOU WOULD LIKE, BECAUSE ON ONE HAND, THERE ARE TRUMP'S DEMANDS, AND ON THE OTHER HAND, HE HAS HIS FAR RIGHT PARTNERS TO KEEP DEMANDING HE GO BACK TO WAR, AND ARE NOT ENTHUSIASTIC AT ALL REGARDING A POSSIBLE HOSTAGE DEAL, BECAUSE IT MEANS BOTH AN ISRAELI WITHDRAWAL FROM ALL OF THE GAZA STRIP, AND ALSO A RELEASE OF THOUSANDS MORE PALESTINIAN PRISONERS, MANY OF THEM MASTERMINDS BEHIND THE TERRIBLE TERRORIST ATTACKS IN THE LAST FEW DECADES.

>> AND YET, IT IS NOT NECESSARILY A BINARY CHOICE FOR PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU, BECAUSE WE KNOW THE OPPOSITION, IN ISRAEL -- AND THE WHITE HOUSE KNOWS THIS, AS WELL -- HAS OFFERED HIM A LIFELINE.

IF HE DOES GO FORWARD AND GO THROUGH WITH THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE DEAL, THEY WILL REPLACE ANY OF THOSE FAR RIGHT MEMBERS OF THIS COALITION, WHERE THIS AIMS TO LEAD.

SO, THE QUESTION YOU ASK IN YOUR FOREIGN AFFAIRS PIECE, CAN NETANYAHU SURVIVE WITHOUT A WAR?

>> I WOULD SAY, NEVER UNDERESTIMATE NETANYAHU.

HE HAS BEEN IN POWER FOR AGES, HE IS ISRAEL'S LONGEST-SERVING PRIME MINISTER, AND HE WILL DO ANYTHING NECESSARY IN ORDER TO REMAIN IN POWER, BECAUSE OF ALL KINDS OF POLITICAL PROBLEMS HE HAS, BECAUSE THERE IS A CRIMINAL TRIAL AND SO ON.

SO, HE IS INVESTED IN STAYING AHEAD AND STAYING PRIME MINISTER IN THE LONG RUN, AND HE WILL DO WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE, FROM HIS PERSPECTIVE, AND HE HAS ALREADY CHANGED SOME OF HIS VIEWS.

REMEMBER, HIM TALKING ABOUT THE PHILADELPHIA CORRIDOR, AND DEFINING IT AS AN IMPORTANT, STRATEGIC ASSET, THAT WOULD NEVER BE EVACUATED BY ISRAELI FORCES.

WELL, THE IS AGREEMENT NOW SAYS ISRAEL WOULD BE EVACUATED IN A FEW WEEKS AND APPARENTLY THIS IS WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN.

CUT THE GAZA STRIP BY HALF BY THE NORTH AND THE SOUTH, AND LAST WEEK, ACCORDING TO THE DEAL REACHED BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, ALLOWED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PALESTINIAN RESIDENTS TO GO BACK TO GO BACK TO THEIR TOWNS AND VILLAGES, MOST OF THEM DESTROYED DURING THE WAR, IN NORTHERN GAZA STRIP.

SO, NETANYAHU IS WILLING TO MAKE ALL SORTS OF DEALS IN ORDER TO STAY.

AND AS YOU MENTIONED, HIS OPPOSITION, IN THE CENTER LEFT, SOME MEMBERS OF THIS OPPOSITION ARE WILLING TO GIVE HIM SOME SORT OF POLITICAL HELP, AT LEAST SHORT-TERM, IN ORDER FOR THE DEAL TO CONTINUE.

AND I WILL MAKE ANOTHER POINT, WHICH I FIND EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, THE HOSTAGE DEAL ITSELF -- AND I KNOW YOU HAVE BEEN TO ISRAEL AND FOLLOW THIS VERY CAREFULLY -- BUT, THIS WHOLE AFFAIR HAS SHAKEN ISRAELI PUBLIC OPINION, COMPLETELY.

IT IS STILL SHELLSHOCKED BY THE EVENTS OF OCTOBER 7th, AND I THINK THERE IS A LARGE MAJORITY OF ISRAELIS THAT NOT ONLY SUPPORT A HOSTAGE DEAL, BUT ARE EMOTIONALLY AND IDEOLOGICALLY INVESTED IN BRINGING OUR BRETHREN, IF YOU WOULD LIKE, BACK HOME.

THERE ARE STILL 79 ISRAELI HOSTAGES, MOST OF THEM ISRAELIS, HOSTAGES HELD BY HAMAS, AND I THINK THE PUBLIC OPINION IS INVESTED IN THAT PERIOD OF NETANYAHU NOW DECIDES TO MAKE THIS SORT OF A U-TURN AND MOVE FORWARD WITH THE DEAL, THIS WOULD HAVE CRUCIAL DOMESTIC IMPLICATIONS, AS WELL.

>> NO DOUBT.

THE COUNTRY IS UNITED MORE THAN EVER NOW AFTER SEEING THESE FIRST HOSTAGES COMING HOME, THEY WANT TO CONTINUE UNTIL EVERY SINGLE HOSTAGES HOME AND THAT WOULD INVOLVE THE IMPLEMENTATION OF PHASE TWO AND THREE.

ALSO NOTABLE DURING MY TIME THERE WAS ALMOST EVERY SINGLE PERSON I SPOKE WITH, WHETHER AT HOSTAGE SQUARE OR FAMILY MEMBERS OF HOSTAGES MAY DIRECT PLEASE NOT TO PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU, BUT TO PRESIDENT TRUMP, SAYING HE WAS THE ONLY ONE THAT COULD SECURE THE RELEASE OF THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS OF THE REST OF THE HOSTAGES, AND BRING THIS WAR TO AN END.

BUT, WHERE THERE MAY BE SOME FRICTION IS WHERE THEIR ULTIMATE GOALS ARE, I'M TALKING ABOUT PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU AND PRESIDENT TRUMP, BECAUSE IT DOES APPEAR THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS LOOKING SEVERAL STEPS AHEAD, AT A NORMALIZATION DEAL IN BETWEEN SAUDI ARABIA AND ISRAEL, AS WELL AS A DEFENSE DEAL BETWEEN ISSAUDI ARABIA AND THE UNITED STATES.

THAT WOULD REQUIRE NOT ONLY A DAY AFTER PLAN FOR GAZA, BUT ALSO A PLAN FOR WHO WILL BE LEADING, AND IN CONTROL OF GAZA.

THUS FAR, PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU HAS NOT BEEN WILLING TO AGREE TO ANY DAY AFTER PLAN.

I KNOW YOU HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT THIS, MANY ANALYSTS ACTUALLY BLAME HIM FOR THAT, A REASON THAT WE STILL SEE HAMAS MAY BE VERY CRIPPLED, BUT STILL, THE RULING PARTY IN GAZA NOW FOR SO MANY MONTHS, AFTER THIS WAR BEGAN.

ARE HIS DAYS OF KICKING THE CAN DOWN THE ROAD ON THAT ISSUE, ON THE DAY AFTER PLAN, ON WHO WILL BE LEADING, IN CONTROL OF GAZA, ARE THEY NUMBERED, AT THIS POINT?

>> AS LONG AS PRESIDENT TRUMP IS FOCUSED ON MOVING FORWARD WITH THIS REGIONAL DEAL, THEN IT WILL BE VERY, VERY HARD FOR NETANYAHU TO DELAY EVENTS, OR DEVELOPMENTS, OR MISLEAD TRUMP.

FOR THE TIME BEING, THIS SEEMS THE COURSE OF EVENTS.

I WOULDN'T UNDERESTIMATE TRUMP'S PERSONAL MOTIVES, HERE.

NOBEL PEACE PRIZE IS SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN ON HIS MIND FOR YEARS.

I THINK THE LIST CLOSES IN OCTOBER.

THE PRIZE, ITSELF, THE CEREMONY IS IN DECEMBER.

I AM SURE THAT THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT TO THE PRESIDENT, AND NETANYAHU IS, OF COURSE, PERFECTLY AWARE OF THAT.

AND YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ABOUT NETANYAHU'S REFUSAL TO DISCUSS THE DAY AFTER, AND YET, WE HAVE HEARD THE PRESIDENT IN RECENT DAYS SAYING THAT HAMAS CANNOT BE A PART OF THE SOLUTION, SO THE AMERICANS, AS WELL, I AM NOT SURE THEY KNOW HOW, BUT THEY DO WANT TO PUSH HAMAS ASIDE.

THE QUESTION IS, WHO WOULD RULE GAZA LATER?

BUT, LOOK AT WHAT WE ARE ALL SEEING.

AND IT HAS OPENED THE GATES AFTER A LONG TIME, AFTER MONTHS AND MONTHS, WHERE IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO CROSS FROM GAZA TO EGYPT.

AND HAMAS IS NOT IN CONTROL, THERE.

IT IS ACTUALLY THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY.

THEY ARE HIDING, THEY ARE PRETENDING TO BE SOMEWHERE ELSE, BUT THERE ARE 20 TO 30 POLICEMEN WHO GET THEIR SALARIES FROM THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY IN THE WEST BANK, WHO ARE THERE EVERY MORNING TO OPEN THE RAFAH CROSSING.

THIS IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.

THAT MEANS ALL KINDS OF SOLUTIONS COULD BE FOUND BEHIND THE SCENES, IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT WE DO NOT EXACTLY FIT WHAT NETANYAHU HAS SAID BEFORE.

>> THAT IS NOTABLE, SAYING WHO IS THERE IN RAFAH, AND THE P.A.S INVOLVED, AT THIS POINT.

ALSO, AMOS, THE CRITICAL QUESTION OF IRAN, AND WHETHER THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL ARE ON THE SAME PAGE IN TERMS OF IRAN'S CONTINUED NUCLEAR AMBITIONS.

THE NEW YORK TIMES IS REPORTING THAT SOME OFFICIALS BELIEVE IRAN IS NOW EXPLORING A "FASTER, CRUDER APPROACH TO DEVELOPING AN ATOMIC WEAPON."

WE KNOW THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS BEEN MORE OF AN ISOLATIONIST THIS TIME AROUND THAN HE WAS DURING HIS FIRST ADMINISTRATION, AND HE HAS REPEATED HIS DESIRE TO CUT A DEAL, IF NOT A TOUGHER DEAL, WITH IRAN.

THAT MAY NOT ALIGN WITH WHERE PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU IS ON THIS ISSUE.

WHERE DO YOU SEE THIS DEBATE GOING?

>> NETANYAHU HAS, FOR A LONG TIME, WISHED FOR A JOINT ISRAELI-AMERICAN ATTACK, TO BRING IN NUCLEAR SITES.

IN FACT, I THINK THIS IS EASIER TO DO RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE ISRAEL WAS QUITE SUCCESSFUL LAST OCTOBER IN GETTING IRAN'S AERIAL DEFENSE SYSTEM, AND I THINK WE HAVE MADE QUITE A LOT OF PROGRESS, THERE.

THERE IS MORE OF A POSSIBILITY TO HIT IRANIAN TARGETS, BUT THIS NEEDS TO BE DONE WITH SOME TYPE OF MILITARY OPERATION, WITH AMERICA.

I DON'T THINK THE ADMINISTRATION IS INTERESTED IN THAT.

I THINK, PROBABLY, TRUMP WOULD USE THE ISRAELI MILITARY THREAT TO FORCE ANOTHER DEAL, A DIFFERENT DEAL, WHICH WOULD DEMAND MORE FROM IRAN, TO FORCE IT ON THE IRANIAN REGIME.

SO, THIS IS WHERE WE ARE NOW, WE WILL SEE A LOT OF THREATS IN THE NEXT FEW MONTHS, A LOT OF TALK ABOUT POSSIBLE ISRAELI STRIKES.

FOR THE TIME BEING, IT IS HARD FOR ME TO IMAGINE THAT TRUMP WOULD ACTUALLY ALLOW NETANYAHU TO STRIKE.

IT SEEMS MORE PROBABLE THAT A DEAL WOULD BE STRUCK BEFORE ISRAEL HITS ANY IRANIAN TARGETS.

>> FINALLY, AMOS, I WOULD LIKE TO GET YOU TO RESPOND TO TRUMP'S ANSWER, WHEN ASKED IF HE WOULD SUPPORT IT WEST BANK ANNEXATION.

THIS WAS AN OVAL OFFICE QUESTION, Q&A WITH REPORTERS.

HE SAID, "I'M NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT THAT, IT'S CERTAINLY A SMALL COUNTRY IN TERMS OF LAND.

YOU SEE THIS PIN," HE HELD UP A PEN.

"THIS WONDERFUL PEN, A BEAUTIFUL PEN.

MY DESK IS THE MIDDLE EAST, AND THE TOP OF THE PIN IS ISRAEL, THAT IS NOT GOOD.

IT IS A PRETTY BIG DIFFERENCE."

HE GOES ON AND ON TO TALK ABOUT THE SIZE OF THE PIN AND HOW SMALL ISRAEL IS, AND HOW IT IS A LOT OF GOOD FOR A LOT OF BRAINPOWER.

A RATHER CONFUSING RESPONSE.

I'M JUST WONDERING HOW YOU INTERPRETED THAT?

>> IT IS HARD TO INTERPRET.

I THINK YOU CAN SEE A BASIC SENTIMENT, WHICH REMAINS PRO- ISRAEL FOR A LONG TIME.

YOU CAN SEE THAT ON TRUMP'S FIRST TERM, AS WELL.

BUT, THIS RESPONSE, I WOULDN'T JUDGE BY WHAT TRUMP WOULD THINK ABOUT A POSSIBLE TWO STATE SOLUTION LATER ON.

IT IS QUITE CLEAR THAT EVERYBODY, NOT ONLY ISRAELIS, BUT EVERYBODY AROUND TRUMP, IS DOUBTFUL WHETHER A TWO STATE SOLUTION IS POSSIBLE UNDER THE CURRENT CIRCUMSTANCES, AND ESPECIALLY AFTER WE SAW THE ATROCITIES OF OCTOBER 7th, THE ISRAELIS ARE MUCH MORE DOUBTFUL ABOUT THIS POSSIBLE OUTCOME.

I ASSUMED THE PRESIDENT SHARED SOME OF THE SAME SENTIMENT.

THAT DOES NOT MEAN HE WOULD SUPPORT ISRAELI ANNEXATION, AND IF YOU LIKE THAT, WE WILL SEE WHAT KINDS OF DEALS WE CAN CLOSE BEHIND THE SCENES.

IT DOESN'T SEEM TO ME, AT LEAST, TO BE IN THE CARDS RIGHT NOW, ALTHOUGH SOME FAR RIGHT ISRAELI POLITICIANS ARE ALREADY HOPING FOR THAT.

>> AMOS HARRELL, ALWAYS GREAT TO SEE YOU AND HEAR YOUR ANALYSIS.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> WELL, NEXT, WE TURN TO SEDAN, WHERE CONDITIONS AMONG THE ONGOING CIVIL WAR BETWEEN GENERALS ARE GOING FROM BAD TO WORSE.

OVER THE WEEKEND, AN ATTACK BY THE RAPID SUPPORT FORCES ON AN OPEN AIR MARKET KILLED MORE THAN 50 PEOPLE, ACCORDING TO HEALTH AUTHORITIES.

THE RSF HAS DENIED RESPONSIBILITY.

IT ADDS TO THE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED IN THE CONFLICT, WITH MULTIPLE REPORTS OF WAR CRIMES AND ATROCITIES.

AND THE U.S.

ACCUSING THE RSF OF GENOCIDE.

IS A PHYSICIAN WITH DOCTORS WITHOUT BORDERS, OR MSF, AND SPENT PART OF HIS CHILDHOOD IN SEDAN.

HE JOINED ME FROM UNDER ON.

>> DR., THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME TO SPEAK WITH US.

WE HAVE BEEN COVERING THIS WAR NOW FOR NEARLY TWO YEARS.

THE HUMANITARIAN TOLL IS JUST DEVASTATING.

AT LEAST 20,000 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED, OVER 3 MILLION PEOPLE HAVE FLED THE COUNTRY, HAVE BEEN DISPLACED TO NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES.

THE U.N.

FIGURES ABOUT 30 MILLION PEOPLE, OVER HALF OF THE POPULATION, WILL REQUIRE ASSISTANCE, THIS YEAR ALONE.

I KNOW YOU HAVE COVERED MANY WAR ZONES, WORKED IN MANY WAR ZONES.

HOW DOES THIS ONE, IN PARTICULAR, COMPARE?

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

YES, I HAVE WORKED IN MANY PLACES AND IT IS SORT OF HARD TO COMPARE AND CONTRAST.

I THINK WHAT IT IS SAYING ABOUT SUDAN -- AND THIS IS MY SECOND TIME HERE SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR -- IS QUITE HOW LARGE THE NEEDS ARE, AND HOW MUCH OF THEM ARE UNMET AT THIS SCALE OF THE NEEDS IN SUDAN, ACROSS THE BOARD, WITH OUTBREAKS IN DISEASES, WITH CASUALTIES AND VIOLENCE IN WAR, WITH MALNUTRITION, WITH MATERNAL HEALTH, WITH A TOTAL BREAKDOWN IN THE HEALTH SYSTEM AND BEYOND.

IT IS SOMETHING THAT IS ALMOST UNIMAGINABLE.

YOU HAVE TO IMAGINE AND KNOW THAT SUDAN IS A HUGE COUNTRY, AND THERE HAS BEEN A TOTAL WAR NORTH, SOUTH, EAST, WEST, AND DISPLACED MULTIPLE MILLIONS, AS YOU HAVE SAID.

AND TO MATCH THOSE NEEDS TO WHAT HAS ACTUALLY BEEN PROVIDED, IN TERMS OF CARE AND ACCESS, IS SOMETHING THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE.

SO, WE ARE HERE, WORKING AS AN AGENCY, AS AN FF ON BOTH LINES, MANY ORGANIZATIONS HAVE NOT FOUND THE WAY TO WORK IN BOTH SIDES, UNDER RSF AND SEDAN ARMED FORCES TERRITORIES.

ACCESS TO SEDAN IS VERY DIFFICULT, IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN DIFFICULT.

MY OWN EXPERIENCE IS THAT IT IS -- HOW CAN I PUT IT -- THE MOST TIRING PLACE I HAVE WORKED.

BECAUSE IT IS NOT EASY, EVEN TO MOVE CARGO AROUND.

YOU NEED PERMITS FOR EVERYTHING, YOU NEED PERMISSION FROM MULTIPLE AGENCIES AND AUTHORITIES.

THESE BUREAUCRATIC HURDLES THAT YOU HAVE TO JUMP THROUGH, ALONE, ARE EXHAUSTING AND REQUIRE RESOURCE.

AND IT IS TOO MUCH FOR MANY AGENCIES TO OVERCOME, AND HAS CREATED A BARRIER FOR US, TO REALLY DO AS MUCH AS WE WANT TO DO.

>> WHO IS CONTROLLING THE BUREAUCRATIC HURDLES THAT YOU SAY ARE SO DIFFICULT TO OVERCOME?

>> YOU HAVE THE TWO GROUPS THAT ARE CONTROLLING TERRITORIES IN SEDAN, NOW.

THE WAR IS BETWEEN THE RAPID SUPPORT FORCES, THE RSF, AND THE SUDANESE ARMED FORCES, THE SAF.

SO, IT IS -- >> SO, IT IS BOTH SIDES?

RIGHT, SO, IT IS BOTH SIDES.

>> INDEED.

>> SO, WE SHOULD MAKE CLEAR THAT YOU ARE FEELING PUSHBACK HERE AND IMPEDING YOU DOING THE WORK THAT YOU WERE THERE, WANTING TO DO, NEEDING TO DO, AND THAT IS TENDING TO THE MOST VULNERABLE.

IS THAT CORRECT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

IF I COULD GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE -- IF I WANTED TO MOVE SUPPLIES RAPIDLY FROM ONE SIDE OF THE COUNTRY TO ANOTHER, YOU HAVE TO APPLY FOR PERMITS.

OR, EVEN WAITING FOR VISAS FOR MEMBERS OF STAFF CAN TAKE 5 TO 8 WEEKS IN NAIROBI TO COME IN, OR EVEN TO MOVE STAFF ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

ONE EXAMPLE IS THAT MY INTERNATIONAL COLLEAGUES, IN MY TEAM IN KHARTOUM WERE ALL EXPELLED AT THE BEGINNING OF SEPTEMBER.

I WAS ABLE TO STAY AS A SUDANESE NATIONAL WITH MY SUDANESE COLLEAGUES, HERE.

BUT, TO LOSE A SUBSTANTIAL PORTION OF THE PROJECT LEADERSHIP CAN SET YOU BACK.

THIS IS WHAT TO DO WITH BUREAUCRACY, AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED.

THEY WANT TO DO WITH ANY MAJOR TRANSGRESSION, AND ANYTHING THAT WE HAVE DONE, WE ARE WORKING HERE UNDER HUMANITARIAN LOOKING TO GIVE CARE.

>> THERE WAS A SIGNIFICANT MARKET STRIKE JUST OVER THE WEEKEND.

CAN YOU WALK US THROUGH THE DEVASTATING IMPACT OF THAT STRIKE, AND SOME OF THE CIVILIANS, PERHAPS -- I DON'T KNOW IF YOU TENDED TO THEM, BUT THE CASUALTIES, AS A RESULT?

>> YES, I DID TEND TO THAT STRIKE, AND THERE WAS ANOTHER ONE TODAY, ON SATURDAY.

WE ARE WORKING TO SUPPORT THE EMERGENCY ROOM IN A NOW HOSPITAL HERE WHERE THE POPULATION IS ALMOST LIVING AS NORMAL, BUT YOU HEAR THE SOUNDS OF WAR OVER US.

THERE ARE FRONT LINES TO THE EAST, SOUTH, AND WEST OF US, AND TO THE EAST ACROSS THE RIVER.

ON SATURDAY, TWO STRIKES LANDED VERY, VERY NEAR OUR BASE, AND THE HOSPITAL, WHICH IS JUST FIVE MINUTES AWAY HERE.

SORRY, AT A MARKET, JUST A FEW MINUTES AWAY.

VERY QUICKLY, THOUGH, THERE WAS A MASS CASUALTY INTO THE HOSPITAL AND FOUR OF MY DR.

COLLEAGUES, INCLUDING MYSELF, TWO NURSES, AND TWO PHARMACISTS AT THE MSF THERE, WE WENT IN SUPPORT OF THE HEALTH STAFF WORKING IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM.

THE HOSPITAL ALONE RECEIVED 103 INJURIES, THE FEDERAL MINISTRY OF HEALTH SAYS, I GOT THE FIGURES HERE, 158 PEOPLE WERE INJURED, AND 54 WERE KILLED.

TO GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE, THERE WERE CRITICS, THERE WERE HEAD INJURIES, THEY WERE PENETRATED THEM'S, AND SHRAPNEL.

I ATTENDED TO A MAN WHO HAD INJURIES THAT COULD NOT BE SAVED.

WHAT THIS SHOWS IS THAT CIVILIANS ARE BEARING THE BRUNT OF THE WAR.

THIS WAS AN ATTACK ON A MARKETPLACE.

TODAY, THE ATTACK HAPPENED VERY NEAR THE HOSPITAL, AND ACTUALLY KILLED A VOLUNTEER.

THERE HAVE BEEN ATTACKS ON CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE AROUND THE COUNTRY, AND EARLIER LAST MONTH, THERE WAS AN ATTACK ON THE DAM, A HYDROELECTRIC DAM THAT CUT ELECTRICITY FOR TWO WEEKS ACROSS ALL OF KHARTOUM STATES AND ALL OTHERS AND ALSO CUT THE WATER SUPPLY.

IT IS A GRINDING WAR AGAINST CIVILIANS, HERE, AND ACCESS FOR HEALTHCARE WORKERS, ACCESS FOR AGENCIES IS VERY DIFFICULT.

>> AND WE KNOW IT HAS CRIPPLED THE COUNTRY HEALTH SYSTEM, AS WELL.

IF I COULD ASK YOU TO RESPOND, I AM NOT SURE IF YOU WOULD EVEN BE ABLE TO FOLLOW THE DIZZYING HEADLINES OUT OF THE U.S., HERE, WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND SOME OF THE CHANGES BEING IMPLEMENTED.

MOST NOTABLY, I THINK AS IT WOULD IMPACT YOUR WORK, IS THE FREEZING OF USAID.

UP UNTIL LAST WEEK, THE U.S. WAS THE LARGEST SOURCE OF MONEY FOR THE VOLUNTEER RUN KITCHENS THERE IN SUDAN.

THEY FIT UP TO 800,000 PEOPLE, SINCE THEN.

I KNOW THAT THESE SOUP KITCHENS, SOME OF THEM HAVE BEEN SHUT DOWN ALTOGETHER.

JUST TALK ABOUT THE IMPACT OF MOVES LIKE THIS?

AND WHAT IT MEANS, WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE THIS TYPE OF AID COMING IN FROM THE UNITED STATES.

>> THE IMPACT HAS BEEN FELT, ALREADY.

I AM ASHAMED TO SAY, THIS IS AN EXTRAORDINARY ACT ON BEHALF OF THE UNITED STATES, AND IT IS EFFECTIVELY A DEATH SENTENCE.

I HAVE COME IN LAST FOUR, FIVE DAYS, BEEN RECEIVING REQUESTS FOR SUPPORT TO BE ABLE TO JUMP IN.

WE ARE INDEPENDENT AND DON'T TAKE GOVERNMENT MONEY, BUT WE CAN'T JUMP IN TO FILL THE UNITED STATES, AND NOBODY CAN.

W.H.O.

HAS ALSO HAD TO WITHDRAW SOME SUPPORT.

I KNOW OF THREE AGENCIES THAT HAVE COME TO ME IN THE LAST WEEK TO SAY, WE CAN'T SUPPORT ALL THREE PRIMARY HEALTH CENTERS, WE CAN'T NOW SUPPORT THE FOOD, AND WE CAN'T NOW SUPPORT THAT ENTIRE NETWORK OF COMMUNITY MIDWIVES.

CAN YOU HELP?

I WISH I COULD.

WE CAN'T DO EVERYTHING.

IT IS A DEVASTATING AND VERY REAL IMPACT, IN A SITUATION WHERE ALREADY THE RESPONSE HAS NOT BEEN ENOUGH.

I REALLY FEAR -- I REALLY FEAR FOR THE NEXT FEW MONTHS, ESPECIALLY, AS WE ARE ENTERING.

WE WILL ENTER INTO THE HUNGER GAP, THE LIEN SEASON, THROUGH TO MAY, AND RATES OF MALNUTRITION ACROSS THE COUNTRY, ARE 7% TO 35% IN CHILDREN, IN CHILDREN OR LACTATING WOMEN.

AND IF WE DON'T ALREADY HAVE A HUGE RAMPING UP OF FOOD NATIONWIDE, WE WILL SEE EXTRAORDINARY LEVELS OF DEATH IN THE NEXT THREE MONTHS.

AND THAT IS NOT GOING TO BE DONE WITHOUT USAID, IF I COULD JUST DO IT BLUNTLY.

IT IS DEVASTATING.

>> IT IS DEVASTATING, GIVEN THAT HALF OF THE COUNTRY IS ALREADY SUFFERING FROM SEVERE HUNGER, AS WELL, AND WE TALK ABOUT THE IMPACT ON THE MOST VULNERABLE, ESPECIALLY THE CHILDREN.

WE WILL HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

I KNOW THIS IS A PERSONAL MISSION OF YOURS, AS WELL, NOT JUST A PROFESSIONAL ONE, YOU ARE OF SUDANESE HERITAGE, SO THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I KNOW IS EXTRA MEANINGFUL FOR YOU AND PROBABLY EXTRA HEARTBREAKING, TO BE THERE.

BUT, THANK YOU, FOR ALL THE WORK THAT YOU ARE DOING THERE ON THE GROUND, PROVIDING ASSISTANCE TO THOSE WHO NEED IT, MOST.

WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

THANK YOU.

>>> OSCAR CAMPAIGNING IS WELL UNDERWAY, AND AMONG THE HOPEFULS IS A POWERFUL ADAPTATION OF AN ACCLAIMED NOVEL.

"THE NICKEL BOYS" WON THE PULITZER PRIZE IN 2020 AND IT HAS NOW BEEN ADAPTED FOR THE BIG SCREEN BY RAMEL ROSS AND JOSLYN BARNES.

IT TELLS THE STORY OF TWO BLACK BOYS IN THE 1960s, ELWOOD AND TURNER, WHO ARE SENT TO A REFORM SCHOOL, WHERE STUDENTS ARE REGULARLY ABUSED AND BEATEN.

IT IS INSPIRED BY TRUE EVENTS, AND THE FILM TAKES A BOLD APPROACH TO THE MATERIAL, SHOOTING EVERYTHING FROM THE PERSPECTIVES OF ELWOOD AND TURNER.

HERE IS A CLIP FROM THE TRAILER.

>> GETTING BACK ON, IT WAS A LONG TIME AGO.

>> THEY LOOK GOOD.

>> WHERE DID YOU COME FROM?

>> YOUR MOTHER'S WATCH.

>> THEY HAVE ME COMING.

>> THAT'S ALL YOU GOT?

>> I REALLY GOT NOTHING LEFT TO LOSE.

>> YOU DON'T REMEMBER?

>> REMEMBER WHAT?

>> YOU REALLY DON'T REMEMBER?

>> IT HAS RECEIVED RAPTUROUS REVIEWS AND IS NOMINATED FOR BEST ADAPTED SCREENPLAY AND BEST PICTURE AT THE ACADEMY AWARDS.

COWRITER AND DIRECTOR, RAMEL ROSS, JOINS ME NOW.

RAMEL, CONGRATULATIONS ON ALL OF THE ACCLAIM THUS FAR AND THE NOMINATIONS.

CONGRATULATIONS AND WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

FOR THOSE WHO DIDN'T READ THE BOOK -- >> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> -- OR, SEE THE MOVIE YET, WALK US THROUGH WHO THE NICKEL BOYS ARE, AND THE SCHOOL THAT IT WAS LOOSELY BASED ON, THE NICKEL ACADEMY, LOOSELY BASED ON THE ARTHUR, DOZIER SCHOOL FOR BOYS IN FLORIDA.

>> >> YEAH, THE NICKEL BOYS ARE -- WELL, ELWOOD AND TURNER ARE THE MAIN CHARACTERS OF "THE NICKEL BOYS," AND IT IS BASED ON THE DOZIER SCHOOL FOR BOYS WHICH WAS A REFORM SCHOOL THAT CLOSED AROUND 2011.

IT WAS FOUNDED IN THE 1900s.

AND, YOU KNOW, BODIES BEGAN TO BE EXHUMED IN ABOUT 2013, AND THEY REALIZED OVER THE COURSE OF THE INVESTIGATION -- WHICH WAS LED BY DR. AARON KIMBERLY, WHO ALSO WROTE THIS AMAZING BOOK, "WE CARRY THEIR BONES," WHICH WAS THE BASIS FOR COLSON'S STORY, THAT KIDS HAD BEEN MURDERED AND KIDS HAVE GONE MISSING OVER THE COURSE OF THE YEARS.

AND SO, COLSON TURNED THIS INTO A MYTHOLOGY, ESSENTIALLY BY WRITING HIS NOVEL.

>> AN INVESTIGATION FOUND MORE THAN 100 BOYS HAD DIED ON SCHOOL GROUNDS.

I'LL ACTUALLY WANT TO SHOW OUR VIEWERS AN ABSURD -- EXCERPT, THIS IS A SURVIVAL NAMED CECIL GARDNER, HE IS SPEAKING TO A LOCAL FLORIDA NEWS CHANNEL ABOUT A DEDICATION MEMORIAL TO THE SURVIVORS BACK IN 2020 THREE.

LET'S PLAY CLIP.

>> BEING HERE, IT IS REALLY HURTFUL, AND I CAN'T EVEN REALLY LOOK AT THE MEMORIAL, THE STATUE, BECAUSE IT BRINGS BACK SO MUCH HORRIBLE MEMORIES.

>> DID YOU FEEL A RESPONSIBILITY TO THE SURVIVORS, RAMEL, TO TELL THEIR STORY IN THIS FILM?

>> IT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

YOU KNOW, I THINK THE FILM FORM EMERGES FROM THAT RESPONSIBILITY.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE GET JOSLYN BARNES AND I GET INTO THIS NOVEL, AND WE ARE LIKE, LET'S GET TO THE SOURCE MATERIAL.

AND WE GO TO THE DOZIER SCHOOL FOR BOYS, AND CHECK THAT INFORMATION OUT, AND WE REALIZE THAT LIKE, THIS IS A CHANCE TO NOT ONLY SUBMIT THEIR STORY IN CINEMA HISTORY, BUT ALSO TRY TO TOUCH THE INNER LIFE OF MANY OF THE YOUNG KIDS WHOSE LIVES WERE CUT SHORT, ESSENTIALLY.

>> AS WE MENTIONED, THE HEART OF THE STORY IS REALLY THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THESE TWO BOYS AT NICKEL ACADEMY, ELWOOD, CURTIS, AND JACK TURNER.

ELWOOD IS SORT OF AN IDEALIST, AN OPTIMIST, A GREAT STUDENT, DEEP THINKER COMMITTED TO NONVIOLENCE, REALLY, THE PREACHINGS OF MARTIN LUTHER KING JR. AND TURNER IS THE MORE CYNICAL ONE.

HE VIEWS ELWOOD AS A BIT NAOVE, TELLING HIM OUT THERE AND IN HERE, IT IS THE SAME.

ALSO, SHOUT OUT TO MY HOMETOWN OF HOUSTON, WHICH IS ALSO HIS HOMETOWN, AS WELL.

HE CALLS THAT A REAL CITY, UNLIKE THE COUNTRY.

TELL ME ABOUT THESE YOUNG MEN AND THE RELATIONSHIP THAT UNFOLDS BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM?

>> YEAH, IT IS QUITE BEAUTIFUL.

THE WAY WE AIMED TO FILM WAS POINT OF VIEW, WHICH MEANS THE AUDIENCE SORT OF IS THE CHARACTER, CONCEPTUALLY, AT LEAST.

YOU KNOW, WITH THAT, WE ARE GIVING SENTENCE, IN A WAY -- WHICH IS ALSO WHAT WE CALL THE CAMERA, THE SCENTED CAMERA -- SO THEY CAN ONLY SEE EACH OTHER IN THE FILM.

AND THAT, ITSELF, IS A WAY TO EXPLORE WHAT IT MEANS TO BE SEEN, WHAT IT MEANS TO BE UNDERSTOOD, AND TO HAVE, YOU KNOW, YOUR LIFE VALIDATED BY ANOTHER PERSON'S GAZE, AND ANOTHER PERSON'S ATTENTION.

AND COLSON, IN WRITING THE BOOK, CUNDIFF SAID THAT HE WAS ELWOOD AND TURNER AND THE CONVERSATION WAS BETWEEN HIMSELF.

SO, I KIND OF TOOK THAT AS AN INVITATION FOR ME TO ALSO BE ELWOOD AND TURNER, AND LET THAT CONVERSATION BE ONE THAT IS JUST AS MUCH THEORETICAL AS IT IS PHYSICAL.

>> IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE ANY OTHER MOVIE I HAVE SEEN BEFORE, AND IT IS QUITE AN AMBITIOUS APPROACH.

I AM WONDERING FOR YOU, AS SOMEONE WHO HAS NEVER DIRECTED A FEATURE FILM OR WRITTEN A SCREENPLAY, WHAT MADE YOU DECIDE TO TAKE A RISK LIKE THIS?

OBVIOUSLY, IT PROVED TO BE WILDLY SUCCESSFUL WITH ALL OF THE REVIEWS COMING IN.

BUT, YOU COULD SEE IT GOING THE OTHER WAY.

[ LAUGHTER ] >> YEAH.

OH, YEAH.

FOR SURE.

I THINK -- WELL, HONESTLY, I THINK THE RISK WAS MAINLY FOR PLAN B, AND ORION FILMS, AND ANONYMOUS CONTENT, AND LITERATURE FILMS FOR SORT OF PUTTING THE MONEY AND THE ENERGY BEHIND IT.

THIS PROCESS AND THE FORM OF THE FILM IS KIND OF AT THE END OF MY ART PRACTICE.

I HAVE BEEN MAKING FILMS IN ALABAMA FOR ABOUT 15 YEARS, SO TO ME IT SEEMS THAT IT WAS NATURAL AND JUST AN EXTENSION OF THE LAST FILM I MADE, TO MAKE THE CAMERA AN ORGAN, BRING IT INTO THE BODY, MAKE IT AN EXTENSION OF CONSCIOUSNESS TO ALIGN THE VIEWERS' SUBJECTIVITY WITH THE SUBJECTIVITY OF THE CHARACTERS.

WE HAD AN AMAZING DIRECTOR OF PHOTOGRAPHY WHO HELPED DEVELOP THE IDEA, AND WITH OUR BRAINS, WE WERE CAPABLE OF TRULY SORT OF EXPERIMENTING WITH A VISION.

>> AND WATCHING IT, I AM LIKE, I JUST WANT TO SEE WHAT ELWOOD LOOKS LIKE, AND THEN CATCH A GLANCE OF HIM, AND IT IS THROUGH, YOU KNOW, AN IRON, RIGHT?

OR, PHOTOGRAPHS THAT HE IS TAKING WITH HIS GIRLFRIEND.

IT IS A UNIQUE TO TAKE TELL THAT STORY THROUGH THEIR LENS, BUT YOU PULL THE VIEWER IN BECAUSE THEY ARE THERE AND THEY WANT TO SEE WHO THIS PERSON IS, TELLING HIS STORY.

ANOTHER CHARACTER WHO HAD SUCH AN INTEGRAL PART IN THIS FILM, OBVIOUSLY, IS ELWOOD SOLANO.

AND I WANT TO PLAY A SCENE WHO RAISED HIM, PLAYED BEAUTIFUL BY JANAY TAYLOR.

I WANT TO PLAY A SCENE OF COMING TO THE ACADEMY, TO SEE HIM NOT ABLE TO SEE ELWOOD ACTUALLY SEES TURNER, AND WHAT TRANSPIRES IS A BEAUTIFUL MOMENT BETWEEN THESE TWO CHARACTERS.

>> WOULD YOU, PLEASE?

WOULD YOU, PLEASE?

>> YES, MA'AM.

>> I CAME ALL THIS WAY.

IT'S A CRIME THAT WAY THEY WON'T LET ME SEE HIM.

IT'S A CRIME.

WHAT KIND OF PLACE IS THIS, THAT I -- THEY WON'T LET ME SEE HIM?

>> OKAY, THE CAMERA THEN ZOOMS TO THE HEMN OF HER DRESS AND WHAT FOLLOWS IS A BEAUTIFUL EMBRACE BETWEEN THE TWO.

WHAT DOES THAT SCENE MEAN FOR YOU?

>> WELL, IT MEANS EVERYTHING, REALLY.

JANAY TAYLOR, WHO PLAYS HATTIE, IS A PHENOM OF AN ACTOR, AND I THINK ONE THING SHE DOES IN THIS SCENE AND IN MANY OTHERS, IS SHE SORT OF TRANSFERS THE LOVE GAZE, THE BLACK LOVE GAZE, SORT OF THROUGH THE LENS, AND INTO THE EYES OF THE AUDIENCE, AND IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE WAY THAT CINEMA NORMALLY DEALS WITH "BLACK LOVE," YOU SEE TWO CHARACTERS IN LOVE, AND YOU SEE A MOTHER AND A SON LOOKING AT EACH OTHER, BUT TO BE ABLE TO SHARE IN THAT FOR, YOU KNOW, THE BLACK COMMUNITY AND FOR THE COMMUNITY AT LARGE, I THINK IS SOMETHING QUITE SPECIAL.

AND IN THIS THING SPECIFICALLY, SHE CAME TO GIVE ELWOOD A HUG AND SOME LOVE AND SHE COULDN'T, BECAUSE THEY WOULDN'T LET HER SEE HIM, SO SHE GIVES IT TO TURNER, ANYWAY.

AND WHAT A GESTURE.

>> YEAH.

IT WAS A BEAUTIFUL MOMENT.

ANOTHER MOMENT, RAMEL, THAT STOOD OUT TO ME AND WHEN WALKING AWAY FROM THE FILM, I KEPT THINKING ABOUT, WAS WHEN NANA WAS CUTTING THE CAKE THAT SHE HAD BAKED FOR ELWOOD.

I HAD NEVER SEEN SO MUCH ATTENTION GO INTO CUTTING A CAKE, SO MUCH PURPOSE.

AND IT IS NOTABLE, YOU KNOW?

WE DON'T SEE THE TRIAL, WE DON'T SEE DETAILS OF, YOU KNOW, ELWOOD'S TIME IN THE JUSTICE SYSTEM.

BUT, WE SEE AND HEAR FROM THESE CHARACTERS, THEIR OWN INJUSTICE, AND THEIR FAMILIES STORIES, THROUGH SCENES LIKE THIS.

YOU KNOW, AN INNOCENT, YOU KNOW, CAKE BEING CUT REALLY TELLS AN IN-DEPTH STORY ABOUT THE INJUSTICE.

NOT ONLY, OBVIOUSLY, THAT WE ARE ABOUT TO SEE COMMITTED AGAINST ELWOOD, BUT A LINEAGE OF THE FAMILY.

>> YEAH, THERE IS -- >> WHAT MADE YOU TRY TO -- >> SO -- >> YEAH.

>> SO, YEAH, THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT THE COPING MECHANISMS THAT PEOPLE HAVE, IN GENERAL, THAT THEY LEARN, AND THEY BUILD, TO DEAL WITH THE SITUATIONS THAT ARE GOING ON IN HER LIFE.

AND I THINK IN WRITING THIS SCREENPLAY, JOCELYN BARNES AND I WANTED TO HAVE SOME SORT OF RITUAL THAT HAD A KIND OF -- IT WAS IMPLIED THAT YOU WENT TO, TO DEAL WITH THINGS THAT SEEMED TO BE HAPPENING OVER AND OVER IN HER LIFE, AND I THINK SHE DOES AN INCREDIBLE THING, EMBODYING THE ROLE IN THIS MOMENT, BECAUSE I THINK AS A DIRECTOR AND, YOU KNOW, AS AN ARTIST AND, YOU KNOW, WE -- EVERYONE THAT IS MAKING THIS FILM, WE BUILT A SET, AND WE BUILT THE TECHNICAL ELEMENTS OF THIS.

BUT, WHAT YOU ARE SEEING, WHEN SHE IS DOING THESE THINGS, SHE IS EMBODYING A TYPE OF BEHAVIOR THAT IS JUST KIND OF SO LIVED, AND SO GENERATIONALLY POWERFUL, AND MAN, I'M KIND OF FLASHING BACK TO THE SCENE RIGHT NOW, I'M GLAD THAT YOU MENTIONED IT.

>> I LOVE THAT SCENE, AND I WENT BACK AND WATCHED IT, I DON'T KNOW, IT WAS A BEAUTIFUL SCENE AND THERE WAS SO MUCH STORYTELLING IN WHAT YOU WOULD THINK IS A MONDAY MOMENT, BUT THERE WAS SO MUCH TO IT, THERE.

LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT COLSON WHITEHEAD'S INVOLVEMENT.

WHEN YOU REACH OUT TO HIM AND TOLD HIM YOU WERE TAKING ON THIS PROJECT, AND ULTIMATELY HIS REACTION TO THE FILM, ITSELF.

>> WELL, I WAS FORTUNATE TO BE ASKED FOR THIS, AND COLSON HAD SEEN THE COUNTY THIS EVENING, AND HIM AND PLAN B WITH HEIDI GARDNER AND TERRY GARDNER, AND BRAD PITT, OF COURSE, THEY REACHED OUT TO ME AND ASKED ME IF I WOULD LIKE TO TAKE A LOOK AT ADAPTION, SO WE WENT THROUGH THE WHOLE PROCESS OF WRITING AND FIGURING THINGS OUT, AND THEN FINALLY, AFTER WE KNEW WE WERE GOING INTO PRODUCTION, I SENT COLSON THIS REALLY LONG EMAIL THAT JUST TELLS HIM, YOU KNOW, HOW SPECIAL HE IS, AND HOW MUCH HIS NOVEL MEANS TO THE WORLD, AND HOW I WANTED TO BE A WRITER, AND ALL OF THESE PERSONAL THINGS.

AND IN TRUE COLSON FASHION, HE WRITES BACK, "GOOD LUCK, CAN'T WAIT TO SEE THE FILM.

TYLER, YOU GOT IT."

AND I WAS LIKE, MAN, I APPRECIATE THAT.

I APPRECIATE THAT.

KIND OF GIVING ME -- >> THE CONFIDENCE PEOPLE.

>> THE FREEDOM, YEAH.

>> WELL, CONGRATULATIONS TO YOU, RAMEL ROSS, IN ADDITION TO PRODUCING AND DIRECTING AWARD- WINNING FILMS, I TAKE IT YOU ARE STILL FLYING, AS WELL?

HE TOOK UP THAT HOBBY, TOO.

>> YES, I AM.

I [ LAUGHTER ]AM.

I SHOULD GET MY LICENSE MIDSUMMER.

I AM LIKE THREE FOURTHS OF THE WAY THERE.

BUT, YEAH, WHAT A THING, IT IS.

WHAT A THING OF FREE WILL TO BE IN THE AIR AND HAVE THAT MUCH CONTROL OVER ONE'S DIRECTIONALITY, UP DOWN, LEFT, RIGHT, EVERY ANGLE, IT IS WILD.

>> CONGRATULATIONS ON ALL YOUR SUCCESS AND THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME TO TALK WITH US TODAY FOR >> THANK YOU.

>>> WELL, NOW, AS WE HEARD EARLIER IN THE SHOW, USAID FUNDS GROUPS AROUND THE WORLD, PROVIDING CRITICAL SUPPORT.

IT ALSO ACTS AS A KEY SOFT POWER TOOL TO PROMOTE AMERICAN INTERESTS OVERSEAS.

PRESIDENT TRUMP AND ELON MUSK ARE NOW MOVING TO DISMANTLE THE AGENCY IN CONTROVERSIAL COST CUTTING MOVE THAT SPARKED PROTESTS OUTSIDE USAID HEADQUARTERS ON MONDAY.

SO, WHERE DOES ALL OF THIS LEAD THE USAID THOUSANDS OF EMPLOYEES AND BENEFICIARIES?

NEW YORK TIMES REPORTER KAROUN DEMIRJIAN JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO FIND OUT.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THIS HAS BEEN A TUMULTUOUS DAY OR TWO FOR THE USAID, RIGHT?

WE HAD, ON MONDAY, MARCO RUBIO, THE SECRETARY OF STATE, ESSENTIALLY SAID THAT HE IS NOW TAKING OVER AS THE HEAD OF THE AGENCY.

THIS COMES AFTER ELON MUSK LAUNCHES OPERATIONS.

WE ARE GOING TO GET INTO ALL OF THAT.

I GUESS, FIRST, FOR PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY OUR OVERSEAS VIEWERS, JUST A QUICK BACKGROUND MOVE ON WHAT THE USAID IS, WHAT ITS FUNCTION IS.

>> RIGHT.

USAID, WHICH STANDS FOR THE U.S. AGENCY FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT, HAS BEEN THE LEAD GOVERNMENT OPERATION THAT HAS BEEN DOING HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE AND DEVELOPMENT WORK AROUND THE GLOBE.

IT TAKES ITS FOREIGN POLICY GUIDANCE -- OR, IT TOOK ITS FOREIGN POLICY GUIDANCE FROM THE STATE DEPARTMENT FOR DECADES, IT WAS ESTABLISHED IN 1961, BUT OTHERWISE WILL RUN INDEPENDENTLY IN HANDING OUT THESE GRANTS WITH PARTNER ORGANIZATIONS AROUND THE WORLD.

THIS MOVE BY RUBIO ON MONDAY EFFECTIVELY IS TAKING AWAY THAT INDEPENDENCE THAT THEY HAD, SUBSUMING USAID UNDER THE OFFICES OF STATE AND SAYING THE SECRETARY OF STATE IS GOING TO FUNCTION AS THE ADMINISTRATOR OF THE DEVELOPMENTAL AID PROGRAM.

NOW, UNITED STATES WOULD NOT BE THE ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WHERE THE FOREIGN OFFICE BASICALLY CONTROLS DEVELOPMENT AND HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE.

BUT, IT IS A VERY BIG CHANGE TO THE SYSTEM, AND CONGRESS IS SAYING IT IS AN ILLEGAL MOVE BECAUSE THEY CREATED THIS AGENCY FOR DEVELOPMENT, AND THEY ARE STILL FUNDING IT AS A UNIQUE ENTITY.

>> AND WHAT KIND OF AID ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?

>> WE ARE TALKING ABOUT EVERYTHING FROM HEALTH PROGRAMS, TO ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMS, TO INFECTIOUS DISEASES, AND FOOD INSECURITY, AND ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE HAPPENING IN CORNERS OF THE WORLD THAT INCLUDE MANY CONFLICT AREAS WHERE, YOU KNOW, THE FUNNELING OF U.S. MONEY -- WHICH IS OFTEN TIMES THE MOST SIGNIFICANT POT OF MONEY TO COME IN AS DEVELOPMENT ASSISTANCE TO THESE AREAS -- IS REALLY IMPORTANT FOR MAINTAINING STABILITY AND, YOU KNOW, MAINTAINING ALLIANCES EVEN IN PARTS OF THE WORLD WHERE WE HAVE A LOT OF ADVERSARIES AND DO NOT HAVE A GOOD FOOTPRINT OR RELATIONSHIP.

SO, THAT ABILITY TO BE ABLE TO EXTEND THE REACH OF THE UNITED STATES AND ITS HELPFUL HAVE TWO PARTS OF THE WORLD HAS BEEN SEEN AS A VERY IMPORTANT DIPLOMATIC TOOL, EVEN IF IT'S FUNCTION IS A PARALLEL ORGANIZATION TO WHAT THE STATE DEPARTMENT DOES.

>> YOU KNOW, OFTEN, AMERICANS ARE WOEFULLY MISGUIDED WHEN THEY ARE ASKED HOW MUCH DO WE GIVE IN FOREIGN AID.

RIGHT?

THE ESTIMATE IS SORT OF, I THINK WE GIVE A QUARTER OF OUR BUDGET TO THE REST OF THE WORLD.

I MEAN, HOW MUCH, IN MONEY TERMS, ARE WE TALKING ABOUT THAT USAID ACTUALLY DISTRIBUTES?

>> I BELIEVE THAT WE SAID IN FISCAL YEAR 2023, IT WAS ABOUT $38 BILLION, BUT THAT AMOUNTS TO FAR LESS THAN 1% OF THE ANNUAL BUDGET OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

I MEAN, IT PALES IN COMPARISON TO THE SIZE OF, LET'S SAY, THE DEFENSE BUDGET, WHICH IS APPROACHING $1 TRILLION, OVER $850 BILLION, AND WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A COUPLE TENS OF BILLIONS HERE THAT GOES INTO THE FOREIGN AID AND DEVELOPMENT ASSISTANCE, THAT HUMANITARIAN AID POOL.

SO, IT IS NOT, COMPARATIVELY SPEAKING, VERY MUCH MONEY, AT ALL.

>> SO, NOW WE HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT USAID DOES AND WHY IT IS IMPORTANT.

WHAT HAPPENED IN REALLY RAPID SUCCESSION TO USAID, WHAT WERE THE KINDS OF ORDERS, EMAILS THAT THEY WERE GETTING?

WHAT HAPPENED TO HER, BASICALLY, THE OFFICES ON MONDAY?

>> SO, THE DISSOLUTION OF USAID IS REALLY A STORY OF A RAPID DECLINE OVER THE SPAN OF ABOUT A WEEK.

ABOUT A WEEK AGO, IS WHEN DEPUTIES AND REPRESENTATIVES OF ELON MUSK AND THE DEPARTMENT GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY, THE TASK FORCE THAT THE GOVERNMENT CREATED TO CUT BACK ON SPENDING IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, IN HOPES OF BALANCING IT.

THEY ENTERED USAID, IT WAS ALL OF A SUDDEN ALL OF THE SENIOR STAFF STARTED TO BE PUT ON ADMINISTRATIVE LEAVE AND FEAR STARTED TO TAKE HOLD AMONG THE WORKFORCE, THERE.

YOU SAW, THEN, AS THE WEEK PROGRESSED, THAT CONTRACTORS FOUND THAT THEY COULD NO LONGER LOG INTO THEIR EMAIL ACCOUNTS OR ACCESS THE SYSTEMS.

SO, WE ALSO SAW IN THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS THAT THE DIRECT CIVIL SERVANTS STARTED TO LOSE ACCESS TO THE SYSTEMS, AS WELL.

AND ALL OF THIS TOGETHER STARTED TO JUST BASICALLY FEEL LIKE AN INEVITABLE ENDGAME THAT WAS NOT GOING TO BE GOOD FOR USAID.

SO, YOU ENDED UP WITH, YOU KNOW, STAFFERS, FINDING OUT BY EMAIL -- IF THEY EVEN HAD ACCESS TO THEIR EMAIL ANYMORE -- THAT THE OFFICES WERE CLOSED AND THEY SHOULDN'T SHOW UP TO WORK.

YOU HAD NEAR ALTERCATIONS WHERE SOME PEOPLE TRY TO GET INTO THE OFFICE, AND A SMALL SUBSET DID, YOU HAVE THE SECURITY CHIEFS OVER THE WEEKEND BEING LET GO AND PUT ON SUSPENDED LEAVE, AS WELL, BECAUSE THEY TRIED TO DENY ELON MUSK'S REPRESENTATIVES ACCESS TO CLASSIFIED SPACES WHERE THEY WERE SAYING, YOU DON'T HAVE THE SECURITY CLEARANCE TO GET IN HERE.

SO, IT HAS BEEN A CLASH OF A TEST OF WILLS BETWEEN, YOU KNOW, WHETHER THE PEOPLE TASKED BY TRUMP AND MUSK TO MAKE CUTS ARE GOING TO SUCCEED, OR WHETHER THE AGENCY WOULD BE ABLE TO HOLD ON.

IT SEEMS THAT, RIGHT NOW, AT LEAST, THE AGENCY HAS -- THOSE WORKERS HAVE LOST THAT BATTLE, AND USAID HAS BEEN MOVED INTO STATE.

IT IS NOT CLEAR, YOU KNOW, WHAT, IF ANY, PROGRAMS THAT IT RAN MAY ACTUALLY SURVIVE THIS ORGANIZATIONAL TRANSMISSION.

I MEAN, LOOK, THERE HAS BEEN A WAIVER ACROSS THE GOVERNMENT FOR WHAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE LIFESAVING PROGRAMS.

THERE WAS A FREEZE THAT WENT OUT OVER ALL OF THESE PROGRAMS.

THERE IS THAT WAIVER, THERE IS A COURT ORDER THAT SAYS YOU HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, KEEP THE MONEY FLOWING BECAUSE IT IS A SUBJECT OF A LAWSUIT RIGHT NOW.

BUT, OVERALL, YOU KNOW, WE ARE IN A POSITION OF MASSIVE TRANSITION RIGHT NOW, AND IT IS NOT CLEAR, AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHAT PROGRAMS ARE GOING TO SURVIVE UNDER THIS NEW REGIME.

>> WHILE THERE HAS BEEN THIS CONFUSION ON WHAT IS LEGAL AND WHAT IS NOT LEGAL, WHETHER OR NOT IT CAN BE SUBSUMED UNDER THE STATE DEPARTMENT, WHETHER THE AGENCY CAN BE CUT OFF ALTOGETHER, THE WORK IS STOPPING.

IS THAT ACCURATE?

>> SO, IT'S -- IT'S A MIXED BAG, REALLY.

THE WORK HAS STOPPED, FOR THE MOST PART.

WE ARE IN AN AREA WHERE ADDITIONALLY THERE WAS AN EXECUTIVE ORDER PUT OUT OF, DON'T PUT OUT ANY MORE OF THE GRANTS AND THE DISBURSEMENTS THAT ARE ON THE SCHEDULE.

A BUNCH OF STATES SUED, BECAUSE OF THE FRIEZES THAT WERE HAPPENING ACROSS WITH GOVERNMENT GRANTS.

NOW, THERE IS A TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER AND THE ADMINISTRATION HAS SAID, OKAY, FOR ANYTHING THAT IS AN ONGOING OR IN THE PIPELINE AWARD, YOU KNOW, WE STILL HAVE TO SHUT THAT OUT BECAUSE WE ARE IN THE STREETS RIGHT NOW BECAUSE THERE IS THIS COURT CASE THAT IS GOING ON.

SO, THAT IS ONE OF -- YOU KNOW, IT IS NOT CLEAR WHAT THAT WILL MEAN FOR THE WHOLE USAID BUDGET, WHICH IS NOW UNDER THE STATE DEPARTMENT.

RIGHT?

THERE IS ALSO THE QUESTION OF, THERE WAS THIS WAIVER THAT WAS PUT OUT TO SAY -- BECAUSE THERE WAS A BACKLASH OF, LOOK, IF WE STOP FUNDING, YOU KNOW, HIV PROGRAMS, OR CERTAIN VERY, VERY ACUTE FOOD PROGRAMS, WE ARE GOING TO CAUSE POTENTIALLY DEATH AND POTENTIALLY A LOT OF HUMAN SUFFERING, SO THERE WAS THIS WAIVER THAT WAS PUT OUT BEFORE ALL OF THE LAST STEPS OF THE DISSOLUTION OF USAID HAPPENED OVER THE WEEKEND, TO SAY, OKAY, IF IT IS A LIFESAVING PROGRAM WHERE THERE IS A DIRECT, TANGIBLE IMPACT ON KEEPING PEOPLE ALIVE, THEN WE CAN KEEP THOSE PROGRAMS GOING.

BUT, IT HAS BEEN -- YOU KNOW, THERE HAS BEEN CONFUSION.

>> ONE OF THE AREAS THAT WE HAVE BEEN SEEING USAID ACTED IN, IN RECENT MONTHS, IS THE CONFLICT IN GAZA.

AND WHAT HAS HAPPENED, FOR EXAMPLE, TWO PROJECTS ON THE GROUND, THERE?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

IT HAS BEEN PHYSICAL.

IT ALSO IS A CRITICAL COMPONENT TO KEEPING THE CEASE-FIRE GOING.

THE FLOW OF HUMANITARIAN AID INTO GAZA, AND THE UNITED STATES BEING ONE OF THE MAJOR BACKERS OF THAT, AND A GUARANTOR OF THE CEASE-FIRE, AS WELL, THAT IS CRITICAL TO KEEPING THAT HUMMING ALONG AND NOT DESCENDING BACK INTO A WAR.

LISTEN, AT THIS POINT, THE GAZA MISSION -- WHICH IS BASED IN JERUSALEM -- HAS FACED THE SAME HITS AS MANY OF THE OTHER MISSIONS ACROSS THE GLOBE IN CONFLICT AREAS.

THEY HAVE LOST THEIR CONTRACTORS, SOME DIRECTED STAFF ARE HAVING DIFFICULTY.

I MEAN, LOOK, THERE HAS BEEN A PUSH OVER THE LAST SEVERAL HOURS, EVEN, TO TRY TO GET ACCESS BACK FOR SOME OF THESE PEOPLE, TO BRING PEOPLE BACK ONLINE, SO IT ALL IS A VERY MUCH LIVING IN REAL-TIME SORT OF TRANSITIONAL SITUATION.

BUT, THE STAFFING OF THAT OFFICE, LIKE EVERY OTHER OFFICE, HAS TAKEN A HIT AND THAT CAN AFFECT THE CAPACITY BECAUSE THERE IS NO MORE WORK TO BE DONE BY FEWER PEOPLE THAT HAVE TO MAKE IT HAPPEN, AND SO EVERYBODY IS VERY NERVOUS ABOUT WHAT THAT MIGHT LOOK LIKE, AND WILL THAT ACTUALLY AFFECT HOW MUCH AID IS ACTUALLY ABLE TO GET TO THE PALESTINIANS IN GAZA?

>> ONE OF THE CONCERNS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS EXPRESSED, REPEATEDLY, IS THAT WE NEED OTHER COUNTRIES TO STEP UP TO THE PLATE AND FILL THE GAP.

WE CAN'T BE EVERYTHING, TO EVERYONE, ALL THE TIME.

NOW, IS THERE ANY INDICATION THAT TURNING OFF THIS SPIGOT, AS QUICKLY AS TURNING OFF USAID, WILL AUTOMATICALLY GENERATE THAT RESPONSE?

IS THERE ANYTHING, HISTORICALLY, TO SAY, WELL, THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE BACK AWAY?

>> WELL, HARI, YOU ARE TESTING MY HISTORICAL KNOWLEDGE ON THAT ONE, BUT I WILL JUST SAY THIS SORT OF SHOCK TO THE INTERNATIONAL SYSTEM IS PROBABLY NOT GOING TO SEE AN IMMEDIATE OPENING OF EVERYONE ELSE'S TREASURY DEPARTMENTS JUST SPILLING MONEY IN TO COMPLETELY MAKE UP THAT SHORTFALL.

THAT IS JUST COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC.

GOVERNMENT BUDGETS DON'T WORK THAT WAY.

OUR GOVERNMENT BUDGETING PROCESS DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY.

WE SEE CONGRESS BICKERING OVER EVERY PENNY THAT THEY SPEND, IN MANY WAYS.

SO, IT IS A -- LOOK, MANY PEOPLE HAVE EXPRESSED THIS CONCERN THAT EVEN IF YOU CAN RECOVER, EITHER BECAUSE UNITED STATES DECIDES, THESE PROGRAMS ARE GREAT, WE ARE JUST GOING TO RUN THEM OUT OF STATE NOW, IT IS ORGANIZATIONALLY DIFFERENT BUT THE MONEY WILL START FLOWING AND EVERYBODY CAN GET UP AND RUNNING, OR THE COUNTRIES STEP INTO THE BREACH AND THEY FILL IT WITH WHATEVER THEY ARE DOING.

IT WILL TAKE TOO MUCH TIME TO BE ABLE TO ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN SMOOTHLY.

THE CONTRACTORS, THE NGOs THEY WILL HAVE TO SHUT DOWN, THE STAFF THEY WILL HAVE TO LAY OFF, THE LAST IN ACTUALLY PROVIDING SOME OF THE ASSISTANCE TO PEOPLE MEANS THAT YOU WILL LOSE THE KNOW-HOW OF PEOPLE WHO KNOW HOW TO DO THIS, YOU WILL LOSE THE ORGANIZATIONAL EXPERIENCE AND HAVE TO BUILD IT FROM THE GROUND UP AND YOU WILL LOSE THE TRUST OF THE POPULATIONS THAT ARE SERVED BECAUSE, AGAIN, YOU HAVE A GAP OF SEVERAL WEEKS OR SEVERAL MONTHS BEFORE YOU CAN GET THINGS GOING AGAIN, THAT IS THINGS FALLING APART AND BRINGING THINGS BACK UP ONLINE, AND THAT IS A BLACKFOOT POSITION, TAKES MORE TIME, MORE EFFORT, AND MORE REBUILDING OF THAT, YOU KNOW, THE HANDSHAKE RELATIONSHIP OF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE BEING SERVED.

AND SOMETIMES, THE GOVERNMENTS THAT ARE BEING POTENTIALLY HOSTILE TO THE IDEA OF, YOU KNOW, AMERICANS OR OTHERS COMING IN AND HAVING TO GET THAT DIPLOMATIC ABILITY TO COME IN UP AND RUNNING.

AGAIN, IN CONFLICT AREAS, I HAVE HAD PEOPLE TELL ME, LOOK, WHEN THE COMMUNITIES TRUST THE AID WORKERS THAN THOSE PEOPLE ARE MORE LIKELY TO LET THE AID WORKERS FUNCTION.

AND IF THERE IS A LAPSE IN THAT, OR FOR SOME REASON THE AGENCIES ARE SEEN AS UNRELIABLE, IT BECOMES MUCH MORE DIFFICULT FOR THEM TO START UP OPERATIONS AND GET GOING AGAIN.

>> WHAT ARE THE EMPLOYEES THAT YOU HAVE SPOKEN TO SAYING ABOUT ESPECIALLY WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS?

WHETHER THEIR ACCESS HAS BEEN DENIED, AND NOW THERE IS A NEW GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO REALLY HAVEN'T BEEN VETTED BY CONGRESS, WHO AREN'T NECESSARILY POLITICAL APPOINTEES, BUT HAVE ACCESS TO ALL OF THEIR INFORMATION?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, LOOK, THE USAID EMPLOYEES ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE TALKING RIGHT NOW, BUT THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN INFORMING US OF WHAT IS GOING ON, IT IS A MIXED BAG.

SOME OF THEM ARE VERY AFRAID OF WHAT THIS MEANS FOR THEMSELVES AND FOR THE WORLD.

SOME OF THEM ARE VERY IRATE RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE THEY ARE SAYING, LOOK, WE ARE JUST CIVIL SERVANTS, AND HERE IS ELON MUSK AND PEOPLE CALLING US EVIL, THINK WE ARE A CRIMINAL ORGANIZATION DOING TERRIBLE THINGS, BUT IT IS A MIXED BAG.

OBVIOUSLY, PEOPLE WHO DO THAT WORK REALLY BELIEVE IN IT.

THEY ARE -- YOU KNOW, THERE IS A WORKFORCE IN D.C., THERE IS A WORKFORCE AROUND THE GLOBE WHERE A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE KIND OF STRANDED RIGHT NOW BECAUSE THEY CAN'T EVEN -- THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW IF THEY WILL BE ABLE TO GET THEIR TRAVEL TO THE UNITED STATES FUNDED, OR WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW BECAUSE THEY CAN'T ACCESS ANY OF THEIR SYSTEMS.

WHETHER THEY ARE CONTRACTORS, MORE THAN CONTRACTORS, DIRECT HIRES, TOO.

IT IS A LOT OF CONFUSION, A LOT OF ANGER, AND A LOT OF, YOU KNOW, PRELIMINARY GRIEF, I GUESS, BECAUSE I THINK THAT EVERYBODY, RIGHT NOW, GIVEN THE EXPERIENCE THEY HAVE HAD OVER THE LAST WEEK, DOES NOT HAVE A LOT OF CONFIDENCE THAT THE CHANGEOVER TO THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND THE LEADERSHIP OF MARCO RUBIO IS GOING TO SAVE THE PROGRAMS THAT THEY ARE AFRAID NOW ARE GOING TO BE PERMANENTLY ON THE CHOPPING BLOCK.

AND, YOU KNOW, THEY ARE CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT RADIANT EFFECT THAT HAS FOR THE UNITED STATES AND FOR THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN WORKING, FOR YEARS AND YEARS, TO SUPPORT, AS WELL.

YOU KNOW, PEOPLE IN THE FIELD HAVE CLOSE RELATIONSHIPS WITH THE COMMUNITIES THEY SERVE, PEOPLE IN D.C. ARE DOING SUPPORT WORK FOR THOSE PROGRAMS AND THERE IS A LOT OF FEAR.

JUST GENERALLY SPEAKING, FOR THEMSELVES AND FOR THE WORK.

BUT, THE LACK OF WORK, WHAT THAT WILL MEAN GLOBALLY.

>> HAS THERE BEEN ANY RESPONSE FROM THE CORNERS OF CONGRESS?

EVEN REPUBLICANS WHO SUPPORT HUMANITARIAN AID?

OR, THE WORK USAID HAS DONE?

>> LOOK, SECRETARY OF STATE RUBIO WAS, JUST A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, ONE OF THOSE REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS THAT HAD A FAIRLY GOOD TRACK RECORD OF UNDERSTANDING THE IMPORTANCE OF FOREIGN AID.

THE MOST BACKLASH YOU HAVE HEARD FROM LAWMAKERS HAS BEEN FROM DEMOCRATS.

THEY ARE FURIOUS.

THEY ARE UPSET.

THEY ARE SAYING, THIS IS ILLEGAL, THIS IS A POWER GRAB.

WE CREATED USAID, WE CONTINUE TO FUND IT AS A UNIQUE ENTITY.

YOU CAN'T JUST SAY IT DOESN'T EXIST ANYMORE OR SUBSUME IT WITHIN STATE.

AND FRANKLY, THEY HAVE GOTTEN SOME SUPPORT FROM THAT FROM OUTSIDERS, AS WELL.

THE REPUBLICANS ARE IN A REALLY AWKWARD SPOT.

NOT ALL OF THEM ARE BACK IN WASHINGTON, D.C., YET.

OR, WERE BACK IN WASHINGTON, D.C. AT THE POINT OF TIME THINGS STARTED TO HAPPEN.

THEY HAVE BEEN, MORE OR LESS, QUIET ABOUT WHAT THEY THINK BECAUSE IT IS A REALLY AWKWARD SPOT FOR THEM TO BE IN, BETWEEN THE PRESIDENT THAT THEY SUPPORTED, AND THIS POSITION THEY HAVE TAKEN, THINKING RUBIO WILL DO A GOOD JOB AND BELIEVING THAT, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TO CLEAN UP ANY SORTS OF PROBLEMS THERE ARE ACROSS THE GOVERNMENT, INCLUDING IN USAID, AND THEN KIND OF STARING WHAT MIGHT BE A FULL CHOP OF THE ENTIRE PROGRAM, AND ALL OF ITS BUDGETS.

SO, I THINK THEY ARE TRYING TO WAIT AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS, BECAUSE THEY ARE IN A POLITICALLY VERY, VERY STRANGE POSITION.

>> OF COURSE, THERE IS THE HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE WE CAN ALL UNDERSTAND IN THE WAKE OF A DISASTER OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, BUT I THINK THERE IS ALSO A CONSEQUENCE IN THAT THIS IS ALSO PART OF AMERICAN SOFT POWER, WE ARE IN PLACES THAT OTHER COUNTRIES ARE NOT.

WHEN WE LEAVE, WHAT HAPPENS?

>> THAT IS THE BIG QUESTION RIGHT NOW, RIGHT?

THERE ARE INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS BUT ALSO DO WORK IN VARIOUS PARTS OF THE WORLD, BUT ALSO, REMEMBER, LET'S TAKE HEALTH ASSISTANCE, FOR ONE EXAMPLE.

RIGHT?

THE UNITED STATES HAS DISASSOCIATED ITSELF FROM THE W.H.O., SO THAT MEANS THE INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATION HAS LESS MONEY TO GO INTO THOSE PARTS OF THE WORLD, NOW THAT THE UNITED STATES IS PULLING BACK.

OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE OTHER SORTS OF, YOU KNOW, BENEVOLENT AID PROGRAMS, BUT THE UNITED STATES HAS A HUGE BUDGET.

AND THE OTHER THING THAT IS IMPORTANT TO REALIZE, THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE RAISING AS A CONCERN RIGHT NOW, IS THINK ABOUT THE OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD THAT HAVE THE FINANCIAL ABILITY TO BE ABLE TO REACH OUT INTO VARIOUS CORNERS OF THE GLOBE, TO WIELD INFLUENCE, OR TO JUST GIVE ASSISTANCE AND TRY TO MAKE ALLIANCES.

THOSE ARE COUNTRIES THAT THE UNITED STATES CONSIDERS ADVERSARIES, FOR THE MOST PART.

CHINA HAS A BIG REACH INTO THESE AREAS.

RUSSIA, AS WELL, HAS REACHED PARTS OF THE UNDERDEVELOPED WORLD, TO TRY TO HAVE INFLUENCE IN THOSE AREAS.

THE COMPLAINT, AND THE CRITICISM OF THIS, FOR MOSTLY DEMOCRATS, BUT ALSO LOTS OF AID WORKERS AND OTHERS, AS WELL, IS THAT IF THE UNITED STATES PULLS BACK, OTHER PEOPLE ARE GOING TO FILL THAT VOID AND IT WILL BE COUNTRIES THAT WE ALREADY HAVE AN ISSUE WITH.

SO, IF WE PULL BACK ON THE SOFT POWER, ON THESE WAYS OF, YOU KNOW, DOING POSITIVE INFLUENCE BY HELPING PEOPLE AND LIFTING COMMUNITIES UP, THEN THE IDEA IS GOING TO BE CHINA MOVES IN, AND WE START TO BE IN RETREAT AND WE START TO LOSE OUR FOOTPRINT IN THE WORLD, LOSE OUR ALLIANCES, LOSE OUR ABILITY TO INFLUENCE PEOPLE IN COUNTRIES WHERE MAYBE WE DON'T HAVE THE MOST PERFECT DIPLOMATIC RELATIONSHIP, BUT WE ARE HOPING FOR A TURNAROUND.

THAT SORT OF GROUND-UP INFLUENCE IS GONE, AND POTENTIALLY LOST TO OTHERS WHO WOULD WISH THE UNITED STATES VARYING DEGREES OF HARM, BASICALLY.

>> KAROUN DEMIRJIAN, NEW YORK TIMES REPORTER, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> FINALLY, A NEW MOVIE THEATER IN THE HEART OF THE AMAZON.

THIS WEEKEND, THEY OPENED THE DOORS TO NORTHERN BRAZIL'S FIRST INDIGENOUS CINEMA.

LOCALS GATHER FOR THE SCREENING OF AGENT IT IS JUST SHORT FILMS.

TYREASE KOKOMO WELCOMED THE MOVE AS A CELEBRATION OF LOCAL ART AND TALENT, AND "AN OPPORTUNITY TO BE PROTAGONISTS OF OUR OWN HISTORY."

I LOVE THAT.

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