>>> HELLO EVERYBODY AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT'S COMING UP.

> >> I AM VERY HOPEFUL VENEZUELA WILL BE FREE.

>> VENEZUELA OPPOSITION LEADER AND THIS YEAR'S NOBLE PEACE LAUREAT MAKES HER RETURN TO THE SPOTLIGHT AFTER MONTHS IN HIDING.

WE WILL GET REACTION WITH OPPOSITION POLITICIAN LOPEZ WHO FLED VENEZUELA AFTER BEING PUT IN PRISON BY THE MADURO REGIME.

> >> AND THEN AS TRUMP'S IMMIGRATION CRACK DOWN SWEEPS AMERICA, SOME ORGANIZATIONS ARE REFUSING TO BOW TO THE PRESSURE.

A LOOK INSIDE A ONE OF A KIND HOUSE SUPPORTING DETAINEES AND THEIR FAMILIES.

> >> PLUS.

>> IF THE GOAL WAS TO OVERWHELM LET'S JUST SAY THEY ARE SUCCEEDING.

>> NEW YORKER STAFF WRITER SPEAKS TO MICHELLE MARTIN ABOUT WHERE SHE BELIEVES WE ARE HEADED IN 2026.

> >> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE WING WEIR, THE PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.

THE PETER G PETERSON AND JONE FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBURG AND BY CONTRIBUTINGS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

> >> AND WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I'M PAULA NEWTON IN NEW YORK.

A DRAMATIC MOMENT TODAY AFTER NEARLY A YEAR IN HIDING THE VENEZUELA OPPOSITION LEADER SNUCK OUT OF HER COUNTRY AND APPEARED IN PUBLIC AFTER WINNING THE NOBLE PEACE PRIZE.

>> I DON'T THINK THEY HAVE KNOWN WHERE I HAVE BEEN AND CERTAINLY THEY WOULD HAVE DONE EVERYTHING TO STOP ME FROM COMING HERE.

ACTUALLY I WANT TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF YOUR QUESTION TO THANK ALL THOSE MEN AND WOMEN THAT RISKED THEIR LIVES SO I COULD BE HERE TODAY.

>> SHE HAS SPENT YEARS PUSHING FOR THE OUSTER OF MADURO WHO LOST THE LAST ELECTION AND HAS UNJUSTLY HELD ONTO POWER ACCORDING TO OBSERVERS.

THE 58-YEAR-OLD DEDICATED HER PRIZE TO PRESIDENT TRUMP WHO IS TAKING AN AGGRESSIVE STRATEGY AGAINST THE MADURO REGIME BLAMING IT FOR THE FLOW OF DRUGS IN TO THE UNITED STATES THE UNITED STATES RAMPED UP THE PRESSURE SEEING AN OIL TANTER AFTER THOSE CONTROVERSIAL BOAT STRIKES AGAINST ALLEGED DRUG TRAFFICKERS.

IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

WE HAVE HAD SUCH HISTORIC EVENTS.

THAT VIEW OF MARIA ON THE BALCONY ALMOST ICONIC.

THIS FOR THE OPPOSITION A CAUSE FOR CELEBRATION BUT, NOW, SHE IS IN EXILE.

NO LONGER FIGHTING FROM WITH IN VENEZUELA.

COULD THAT MAKE HER LESS EFFECTIVE AS A RESISTANCE LEADER?

YOU HAVE SEEN THIS MANY TIMES BEFORE.

>> YES.

I THINK THAT SHE IS THE NUMBER ONE QUESTION ON EVERYBODY'S MIND IN VENEZUELA WHETHER SHE WILL BE ABLE TO SUCCEED IN WHERE SO MANY OTHER OPPOSITION LEADERS HAVE FAILED IN THE PAST WHICH IS BUILDING AN INTERNATIONAL COALITION AND FINALLY SEE THROUGH A REGIME CHANGE, SEE THROUGH A RETURN FOR VENEZUELA TO DEMOCRACY.

THINK THAT IN THE FIRST --LIKE IN THE SHORT TERM IT'LL BE PROBABLY BETTER FOR MARIA TO STAY OUT.

SHE WILL PROBABLY HOLD MEETINGS WITH SEVERAL --WITH SEVERAL WAR LEADERS, SURELY DONALD TRUMP IS ON HER LIST, I'M AWARE THAT THEY ARE TRYING TO HAVE THAT CONVERSATION AND THAT SHE INTENDS TO GO TO WASHINGTON AT SOME TIME IN THE FUTURE.

ALSO, LET'S NOT UNDERESTIMATE HER POWER TO BRING TOGETHER, TO BRIDGE A COALITION ESPECIALLY WITH EUROPEAN POWERS, MAYBE OTHER COUNTRIES HERE IN LATIN AMERICA IF SHE CAN SORT OF PATCH UP THE DIFFERENT APPROACHES FROM THE EUROPEAN UNION, THE HOLY SEA, THE WHITE HOUSE AND ARGENTINA, COLUMBINA, BRAZIL, MEXICO, MANY COUNTRY WHO HAVE INTEREST IN VENEZUELA AND HAVE TRIED IN THE PAST TO MEDIATE FOR A PEACEFUL SOLUTION TO THE --TO THE SITUATION HERE IN THIS COUNTRY AND, YET, HAVE ALWAYS FAILED.

IN THE SHORT TERM PROBABLY WILL BE BETTER FOR HER TO BE OUT AND HAVING THOSE CONVERSATION FACE TO FACE IN PERSON IN THE LONG TERM, WELL WE HAVE SAID MANY PEOPLE HAVE FAILED BEFORE HER, PERHAPS THE LONG TERM REMAINS TO BE SEEN FOR SURE.

>> DEFINITELY IN DOUBT AND YOU MAKE A GOOD POINT ITS BEEN DIFFICULT FOR ALL THE NUNCE TO REALLY BRING THIS AND GATHER AROUND ONE WAY FOR THE OPPOSITION TO MAKE IN ROADS I WANT TO GO BACK TO THE ISSUE OF THE OIL TANKER.

THE PRESIDENT SAID THAT OTHER THINGS ARE HAPPENING.

WHERE IS THIS CONFRONTATION HEADED BECAUSE IT IS NOT JUST VENEZUELA BUT THE ENTIRE REGION AT THIS POINT.

>> YES, INDEED BUT YOU COULD PERHAPS SEE THERE A CHANGE IN TACTICS.

I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW THE WHITE HOUSE HAS TOLD US THAT THEY WENT AFTER THAT PARTICULAR TANKER BECAUSE IT WAS CARRYING OIL THAT WAS OF COURSE UNDER SANCTION FROM VENEZUELA THROUGH CUBA AND TO IRAN AND IT WAS IN PARTICULAR SANCTIONED BY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IN 2022.

HOWEVER, YOU KNOW GOING AFTER MADURO'S PURSE WHICH IS WHAT YOU DO WHEN YOU SEIZE TANKERS THAT SELL OILIN THE BLACK MARKET IS MORE PALAT, BLE FORK AN ORGANIZATION THAN BLOWING UP ALLEGE NARCO TRAFFICKING SPEEDBOATS WITHOUT SHOWING PROOF SO PERHAPS THIS CHANGE IN TACTICS IS ALSO A WAY FOR THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, FOR THE WHITE HOUSE, OR FOR THE UNITED STATES AS A WHOLE IN TAKING A MORE COH SECONDS IVE LEADERSHIP ACROSS THE REGION.

WHILE, YOU KNOW TRUMP SAID, YESTERDAY THAT HE THINKS COLUMBIA WOULD BE NEXT AND HE WANTS OTHER COUNTRIES TO STEP UP THEIR ANTI NARCOTICS AND ANTI DRUG TRAFFICKING PROGRAMS BUT CLEARLY GOING AFTER MADURO'S PARTICULAR HIMSELF, GOING AFTER THE FINANCES THAT ALLOW HIM TO REMAIN IN POWER HERE IN VENEZUELA IS SOMETHING THAT WILL BE BETTER SEEN, MORE SEEN MORE POSITIVELY BY PERHAPS MADRID, BY FRANCE, COUNTRIES THAT HAVE --HAVE --COUNTRY THAT HAVE --HAVE RAISED CONCERNS ABOUT THE STRATEGIES SO FAR.

>> GRATEFUL TO YOU AS YOU CONTINUE TO WATCH EVENTS SO CLOSELY.

APPRECIATE IT.

> >> ALSO, IN OSLO TODAY, THE FACE OF THE VENEZUELA OPPOSITION FOR YEARS.

THE FIGHT COST HIM HIS FREEDOM.

HE FLED THE COUNTRY IN 2020 AFTER BEING IN PRISON.

HE TOLD ME WHAT THIS MOMENT MEANS TO HIM.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

THANK YOU.

>> I REALLY AM CURIOUS JUST TO HEAR THE EMOTIONS THAT YOU MUST BE FEELING RIGHT NOW.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO YOU SEEING MARIA APPEAR IN OSLO TO RECEIVE HER PRIZE?

>> IT'S VERY EMOTIONAL FOR EVERYBODY IN VENEZUELA IT'S NOT JUST A PRIZE.

IT'S A NOBLE PEACE PRIZE AND NOT JUST THAT BUT RECOGNITION OF A FIGHT FOR FREEDOM AND THAT THERE CAN BE NO PEACE IN THERE IS NO FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY IN VENEZUELA.

SO, FOR ALL OF US IT'S A RECOGNITION THAT THIS FIGHT THAT'S BEEN GOING FOR MORE THAN TWO DECADES FOR DEMOCRACY, FREEDOM AND HUMAN RIGHTS IN VENEZUELA IS REACHING TO A POINT WHERE WE CAN FINALLY, FINALLY TRANSITION TO DEMOCRACY AND OF COURSE MARIA BEING THE VOICE OF THIS HOPE FOR ALL OF VENEZUELA IT'S ALSO VERY EMPOWERING FOR THE VERY DIFFICULT STRUGGLE THAT WE HAVE HAD BUT WITH A LOT OF HOPE IN THE NEAR FUTURE.

>> AND I HEAR YOU ON THE HOPE BUT OF COURSE AS YOU SAID ITS BEEN QUITE A LENGTHY STRUGGLE AND IT CONTINUES.

MARIA LEFT VENEZUELA AS MANY HAVE REPORTEDLY TRAVELING IN DISGUISE BRAVING THE WEATHER TO TRAVEL BY BOAT.

FINALLY A FLIGHT TO THE UNITED STATES AND THEN ONTO OSLO.

THINK ABOUT THAT JOURNEY.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR VENEZUELA WHEN THEY SEE HER ESCAPE ROUTE AND WHAT SHE HAD TO GO THROUGH?

>> WELL IT'S --AS YOU SAY IT'S A WAY THAT MILLIONS OF VENEZUELA RESIDENTS HAVE LEFT THE COUNTRY.

VENEZUELA HAS A POPULATION OF 30 MILLION PEOPLE AND 10 MILLION HAVE BEEN FORCED IN TO EXILE.

IT'S THE LARGEST CRISIS VENEZUELA CROSSING THE BORDER AND WALK FROM COLUMBIA TO CENTRAL AMERICA OR TO ECUADOR, AND OTHER SOUTH AMERICAN COUNTRIES.

SO, IT'S --IT'S A STRUGGLE THAT IS VERY INTIMATE TO EVERY VENEZUELA FAMILY.

THE STRUGGLE THAT WE GO THROUGH IN ORDER TO LEAVE OUR COUNTRY TO FIND HOPE BUT AS SHE HAS SAID, ONCE AND AGAIN THROUGHOUT THIS LAST HOURS SHE WILL BE BACK AND SHE WILL BE BACK TO VENEZUELA.

WE WILL ALL GO BACK TO VENEZUELA AND TO RECONSTRUCT A DEMOCRATIC AND FREE VENEZUELA.

>> I WILL POINT OUT THE OBVIOUS YOU AREN'T BACK YET YOU HAVEN'T BEEN BACK ITS BEEN MORE THAN FIVE YEARS.

THERE'S A LOT OF, YOU KNOW, PERSONAL SACRIFICE AND SIGNIFICANCE.

I WANT TO LISTEN NOW TO WHAT MARIA SAID JUST A LITTLE WHILE AGO.

LISTEN >> I COULDN'T SLEEP LAST NIGHT GOING OVER AND OVER AGAIN THAT FIRST INSTANT WHEN I SAW MY CHILDREN AND, FOR, FOR MANY WEEKS I HAD BEEN THINKING OF THAT POSSIBILITY AND WHICH ONE OF THEM I WOULD HUG FIRST AND TELL YOU SOMETHING I HUGGED THEM THE THREE AT THE SAME TIME AND ITS BEEN ONE OF THE MOST EXTRAORDINARY SPIRITUAL MOMENTS OF MY LIFE.

>> SPIRITUAL MOMENT.

I KNOW HOW MUCH YOU REALLY CAN TAP INTO THAT SAME EMOTION.

CAN YOU SPEAK TO THE SACRIFICES THAT SHE HAS MADE IN HIDING APPARENTLY SHE HAS SEEN HARDLY ANYONE IN MONTHS AND MONTHS.

>> YEAH.

SHE WAS IN HIDING FOR OVER A YEAR AFTER MADURO STOLE THE ELECTION IN 2024.

EVERYBODY, THAT WAS A VOICE AGAINST THE DICTATORSHIP HAD TO GO INTO HIDING SHE HAD TO GO INTO HIDING BUT SHE KEPT HER VOICE.

SHE KEPT THE SPIRIT OF THE STRUGGLE ALIVE AND NOW THAT SHE IS OUT OF VENEZUELA BUT WITH A COMMITMENT TO GO BACK AS WE ALL WILL STRENGTHENED.

THAT VOICE AND STRENGTHENS THE COMMITMENT NOT JUST OF VENEZUELA BUT OF THE FREE WORLD BECAUSE WITH WHAT THIS PRIZE RECOGNITION MEAN IS THE RECOGNITION OF THE FREE WORLD, OF THE DEMOCRATIC WORLD THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE CHANGE.

YESTERDAY, WE HEARD TWO TREMENDOUS SPEECHES AT THE NOBLE PRIZE CEREMONY.

THE SPEECH GIVEN BY NOBLE PRIZE WAS AN XRAY OF WHAT'S HAPPENED IN VENEZUELA OVER THE PAST YEARS AND WHY MADURO MUST GO THAT'S HOW THE NORWEGIAN LEADER OF THE PRIZE ENDED HIS SPEECH SAYING THAT MADURO NEEDS TO GO.

THAT HAS BEEN FOR YEARS OUR FIGHT AND NOW HAVING THAT RESONATE EAR IN OSLO THROUGH THE PRIZE IS VERY MEANINGFUL, VERY POWERFUL AND WE HOPE, WE KNOW IT'LL TRANSLATE INTO CONCRETE ACTIONS.

ALL VENEZUELA WE HAVE TRIED EVERYTHING.

MANY OF US HAVE COME TO PRISON I SPENT SEVEN YEARS IN CONFINEMENT.

I WAS SEPARATED FROM MY FAMILY LIKE MILLIONS HAVE.

WE HAVE TAKEN THE STREETS.

THOUSANDS OF TIMES.

WE ARE HAVE GOB TO NEGOTIATION PROCESSES.

WE HAVE USED DIPLOMACY, SANCTIONS, AND OF COURSE VOTING AND GOING TO ELECTION THAT WE ACTUALLY WON BUT IN SPITE ALL OF THIS MADURO STILL IN POWER.

WHY?

BECAUSE HE IS AN AUTOCRAT.

HE IS A NARCO TERRORIST THAT USES POWER TO HOLD ON.

USES THE GUN AND POWER TO HOLD ON THROUGH HIS -- >> YOU HAVE SPOKEN ABOUT YOUR SACRIFICES I HAVE BEEN WITNESS TO A LOT OF THEM OVER MANY YEARS.

I HAVE SEEN THE OPPOSITION.

UNFORTUNATELY EVEN WITH HOPE AND INSPIRATION STILL FAIL.

I KNOW WHAT ARE YOU SAYING THAT YOU BELIEVE THIS IS AN IMPORTANT POINT BUT HOW CAN YOU BE SURE?

WE HAVE BEEN HERE BEFORE WITH VENEZUELA.

THERE IS STILL A RISK THAT IT COULD ALL END IN FAILURE IS THERE NOT?

>> OF COURSE THERE IS A RISK.

THE GREATEST RISK OF ALL IS TO STOP FIGHTING THAT'S THE GREATEST RISK OF ALL.

TO STOP FIGHTING BECAUSE OF LOSING HOPE IS ALSO A RISK.

WHEN THE STORY ABOUT THE STRUGGLE OF THE VENEZUELA PEOPLE IS WRITTEN IT'LL BE A STORY OF RESILENCE OF COMMITMENT, IT'LL BE A STORY OF HOW WE RECREATED OURSELVES OVER AND OVER, TO CONTINUE THE FIGHT AND LET ME ASSURE YOU SOMETHING.

WE WILL CONTINUE TO FIGHT UNTIL VENEZUELA IS FREE.

I KNOW THAT'S A SPIRIT OF MARIA AND THAT'S THE SPIRIT OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.

WE WILL NOT STOP FIGHTING UNTIL VENEZUELA IS FREE AND VENEZUELA WILL BE A PEACEFUL NATION, A PROSPEROUS NATION ONLY IF MADURO LEAVES AND TODAY WE ARE SEEING ANOTHER WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY FOR THAT AS YOU SAY.

WE HAVE BEEN IN THIRD BASE MANY TIMES.

SCORING FREEDOM IS NOT A STRAIGHT LINE IT'S DIFFICULT AND THAT'S WHY WE ARE CONFRONTING AN AUTOCRAT THIS IS NOT A DEMOCRATIC ELECTION.

WITH THE RULE OF LAW OR WITH FAIR GAME PLAY WE ARE CONFRONTING A NARCO TERRORIST REGIME THAT TRAFFICS COCAINE, THAT CONTRABANDS, PERSECUTES, INTEREST TOURS AND KILLS PEOPLE.

MANY OF MY FRIENDS ARE IN PRISON.

THOUSANDS OF FAMILIES HAVE THERE LOVED ONES IN PRISON WITHOUT EVEN HAVING A PHONE CALL.

WHO MORE THAN A YEAR, THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DETAINED WITH NO CONTACT WHATSOEVER.

THAT'S WHAT WE ARE CONFRONTING.

WE ARE CONFRONTING A RGIME THAT USES FORCE TO STAY IN POWER.

>> I'M GLAD THAT YOU HAVE SAID HOW DIFFICULT AND HOW COMPLICATED THIS IS.

IN FACT A REPORT IS THAT MARIA WAS ACTUALLY AIDED BY MEMBERS OF MADURO'S OWN REGIME.

CAN YOU CONFIRM THAT.

>> THAT'S FOR MARIA TO GIVE THE DETAILS OF HOW SHE ESCAPED.

HOWEVER, I CAN TELL YOU THAT THERE IS A FRACTURE WITH IN THE MILITARY WITH IN VENEZUELA.

I MYSELF WAS ABLE TO ESCAPE PRISON BECAUSE THERE WAS THE SUPPORT FROM THE MILITARY AND THE POLICE IN 2019.

NOW WE KNOW THAT THE MILITARY ALSO WANTS CHANGE.

WHY?

I SAY THIS?

BECAUSE LAST YEAR WE HAD THE ELECTION AND IN THE MILITARY BASES WHERE THE MILITARY PEOPLE AND THEIR FAMILIES VOTED IT WAS EXACTLY THE SAME.

GONZALEZ, 70%, MADURO, 30%.

THE MILITARY IN VENEZUELA, THE POLICE IN VENEZUELA, ARE VENEZUELA RESIDENTS AND THEY SUFFER LIKE VENEZUELA AND THEY WANT CHANGE AS ALL VENEZUELA.

BUT THEY ARE THE MOST --AND WATCHED.

THIS ARE TREMENDOUS CONCONSEQUENCES FOR THE MILITARY THAT EVEN SAY SOMETHING THAT THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T LIKE.

WILL THE MILITARY FLIP?

I BELIEVE IT'LL.

WHEN WILL IT HAPPEN?

IT'LL HAPPEN WHEN THERE IS AN ACTION THAT MIGHT REGENERATE THAT ACTION WE HAVE SEEN THAT IN THE PAST AND WE HOPE THAT WE SEE THAT VERY SOON AND WE SEE IT AS A DEFINITE TRANSITION TO DEMOCRACY.

>> NOW THE UNITED STATES ADMINISTRATION AND THE MILITARY ARE GAMING THAT OUT FOR THEMSELVES.

I DON'T HAVE TO REMIND YOU THAT FOR THE BETTER PART OF A GENERATION YOU HAVE BEEN STEADFAST TO CALLING FOR PEACEFUL RESISTANCE.

IN THAT CONTEXT HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY UNITED STATES ACTIONS AT SEA?

THEY CONTINUE TO REPATRIATE PEOPLE WHO RISK CONSEQUENCE AT THE MADURO REGIME.

>> I BELIEVE THAT'S BEST MIGRATION POLICY IS A TRANSITION TO DEMOCRACY.

THAT WILL FOR SURE STOP VENEZUELA PEOPLE LEAVING THE COUNTRY A THIRD OF THE COUNTRY HAVE LEFTOVER THE PAST TEN YEARS.

HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS WILL RETURN TO VENEZUELA AND THAT WILL BE THE BEST POLICY.

WITH RESPECT TO THE DEPLOYMENT OF THE UNITED STATES NAVY IN THE COAST OF VENEZUELA, I BELIEVE THAT IT'S CORRECT TO UNDERSTAND THAT WE ARE NOT FACING JUST AN AUTOCRAT WHO VIOLATES HUMAN RIGHT.

WE ARE FACING THE HEAD OF A NARCO CARTEL AND IT NEEDS TO BE CONFRONTED AS SUCH.

THIS IS NOT NEW.

THIS IS NOT NEW.

12 YEARS AGO A LONG SIDE WITH MARIA CAN ON JANUARY THE 23rd OF 2014 I SAID EXACTLY THIS.

THAT MADURO IS A TERRORIST, THAT REPRESSES THE PEOPLE AND LEADS A CARTEL.

FOR SAYING 12 YEARS AGO I WAS SENTENCED TO 14 YEARS IN PRISON AND SPENT SEVEN YEARS IN CONFINEMENT.

SO, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WE KNOW AS A FACT IN VENEZUELA.

SO WE ARE --.

>> BUT GIVEN --BUT --BUT EVERYTHING THAT YOU ARE SAYING YOU SAID YOU HAVE SAID BEFORE.

THE MILITARY ACTION THAT WE HAVE SEEN NOW IS UNPRECEDENTED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.

DO YOU BACK THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES BECAUSE YOU KNOW MORE THAN MOST THAT THE VULNERABLE IN VENEZUELA IF THERE IS ANY KIND OF UNITED STATES MILITARY LAND STRIKES ARE THE ONE WHO WILL SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES.

>> NOT NECESSARILY.

I BELIEVE THAT THERE CAN BE MANY TACTICAL ACTION THAT HAVE NO DAMAGE AND THAT'S BEEN SEEN IN OTHER CONFLICTS.

I HAVE NO PRECISE INFORMATION OF TACTICS BUT I BELIEVE THAT THERE CAN BE TACTICAL DECISIONS WITH NO COLLATERAL DAMAGE THAT WILL HELP TO TAKE OUT THE REGIME, TO TRANSITION WITH THE L ELECTION THAT TOOK PLACE IN 2024 AND THAT WILL HELP THE VENEZUELA PEOPLE TO BE FREE.

THE ONE THING THAT UNITES THE VENEZUELA PEOPLE ABOVE ANYTHING ELSE IS THE HOPE THAT MADURO LEAVES POWER AND THAT HIS REGIME LEAVES THE CONTROL OF THE VENEZUELA GOVERNMENT.

THAT HOPE FOR FREEDOM.

THAT HOPE FOR DEMOCRACY IS WHAT UNITES THE VENEZUELA PEOPLE THE MOST.

YES, WE SUPPORT THE PRESSURE THAT IS BEEN INFLICTED ON THE MADURO REGIME.

WE SUPPORT THE FACT THAT THE OIL THAT WAS BEING USED TO FUND THIS REPRESSION MACHINERY THAT IT'S PERSECUTING, TORTURING AND KILLING PEOPLE BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT MONEY GOES FOR IS PART OF THAT OPERATION TO PRESSURE THE MADURO REGIME.

THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME I HAVE SAID THIS.

WE HAVE SAID IT MANY TIMES.

I SAID IT A MONTH AGO AND BECAUSE I SAID EXACTLY WHAT I AM SAYING NOW MADURO TOOK AWAY MY NATIONALITY.

THEY WENT TO MY HOUSE AND DESTROYED MY HOUSE.

NOW THEY ARE THREATENING VENEZUELA THAT IF THEY EXPRESSION THEMSELVES IN SUPPORT TO THE PRESSURE THAT IS BEING DEPLOYED AGAINST MADURO, THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES.

SOY BELIEVE THAT THE MOST IMPORTANT IS FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY TO VENEZUELA AND THAT'S WHAT THE NOBLE PEACE PRIZE IS CONTRIBUTING TO.

>> WE MUST LEAVE IT THERE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING ON THE PROGRAM AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

> >> AND NOW TO THE UNITED STATES.

A FEDERAL JUDGE HAS ORDERED THE RELEASE OF KILMAR ARMANDO ABREGO GARCIA FROM ICE CUSTODY.

A SIGNIFICANT DEVELOPMENT IN THE CASE CONCERNING THE MAN DEPORTED THIS YEAR BEFORE BEING RETURNED TO THE UNITED STATES.

NOW THE ICE RAID AS CROSS AMERICA ARE LEAVING A LOT OF CONFUSION AND DESPAIR IN THEIR WAKE AS FAMILIES CAUGHT IN THE DRAG NET.

ONE SMALL PROJECT IN RURAL GEORGIA IS HOPING TO PROVIDE SUPPORT TO THE LOVED ONES OF THOSE DETAINED SO MANY OF WHOM HAVE NO CRIMINAL RECORD.

IT'S THE HOUSE IS BELIEVED TO BE THE ONLY SUCH HOUSE IN THE NATION.

A NEW REPORT BY LATINO USA INVESTIGATES AND THE MARSHALL PROJECT GIVES US AN INSIDE VIEW.

FOLLOWS THE VOLUNTEERS WHO RUN THE HOUSE AND FAMILIES THEY SERVE.

JULIETFA AND SHANNON JOIN ME NOW AND IT'S GOOD TO HAVE YOU BOTH ON THE PROGRAM.

WELCOME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> I DO WANT TO START WITH YOU.

THERE ARE SO MANY COUNTLESS WAYS TO COVER IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT RIGHT NOW.

RAIDS, POLICY, THE DEPORTATION NUMBERS.

WHY THIS?

WHY CHOOSE TO ANCHOR THIS STORY IN THIS SMALL, RURAL REFUGE IN GEORGIA.

WHAT DID YOU BELIEVE THIS PLACE COULD REVEAL ABOUT WHAT'S UNFOLDING IN THE UNITED STATES?

>> YEAH.

AS YOU SAID WE HAVE BEEN COVERING ALMOST EVERY ANGLE OF IMMIGRATION.

I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE REALLY WANTED TO FOCUS ON WITH THIS STORY WAS LOOKING AT SORT OF THE WAYS THAT PEOPLE ARE COMING TOGETHER TO TRY TO RESOLVE SOME OF THE ISSUES THAT COME UP WITH THEINCREASED ENFORCEMENT THE VERY HIGH NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT ARE IN ICE CUSTODY.

SO, IT'S SPECIAL FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS BUT I THINK IN PARTICULAR THE FACT THAT GEORGIA HAS THREE LARGE DETENTION CENTERS, STEWART USED TO BE THE LARGEST AT ONE POINT AND IT'S NOT ANY MORE.

IT'S IN A RURAL PLACE AND THERE IN LIES THE CHALLENGE.

WHEN YOU ARE ISOLATING PEOPLE, WHEN YOU ARE BUILDING DETENTION CENTERS IN THIS RURAL AREA IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING INSIDE.

IT IS DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE TO GET VISITORS AND SO I THINK THAT FOR US WE JUST KIND OF WANTED TO PREABLE TO EXPLORE WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN THIS SMALL TOWN IN SOUTH GEORGIA.

ALSO TO BE ABLE TO TALK TO THE FAMILIES, TO HEAR FROM THE FAMILIES AND TO HEAR FROM THE VOLUNTEERS WHO ARE ACTUALLY GOING INSIDE THE DETENTION CENTER AND HAVE A SENSE OF WHAT'S GOING ON.

>> WE WILL GET TO THE STORIES OF SOME OF THOSE VOLUNTEERS AND THE FAMILY MEMBERS.

SHANNON YOU HAVE COVERED THESE DETENTION CENTERS FOR YEARS.

THE STEWART DETENTION CENTER ITSELF.

AS WE WERE JUST SAYING IT'S ONE OF THE LARGEST IN THE UNITED STATES.

FROM YOUR REPORTING WHAT MAKES STEWART SO CENTRAL TO UNDERSTANDING THIS MOMENT IN ENFORCEMENT UNDER TRUMP'S SECOND TERM BECAUSE THIS KIND OF ENFORCEMENT THAT BEEN GOING ON FOR DECADES BUT IT'S DIFFERENT NOW.

>> YEAH.

IT IS DIFFERENT NOW.

I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, MANY OF THE CONDITIONS WE SEE, CONDITIONS YOU MAY HAVE SEEN UNDER ADMINISTRATION WE HAVE HEARD ABOUT POOR MEDICAL CARE INCLUDING STEWART.

WE HAVE HEARD ABOUT CROWDED CONDITIONS IN STEWART AND OTHER PLACES.

BUT I THINK ONE OF THE THING THAT STOOD OUT TO ME IS HOW MUCH IT FEELS FOR A LOT OF THESE FOLKS LIKE THE CRUELTY IS THE POINT.

THAT THEY ARE IN THESE CENTERS IN THESE BAD CONDITIONS BECAUSE THEY ARE BEING ENCOURAGED TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY VOLUNTARILY WHETHER OR NOT THEY ACTUALLY HAVE LEGAL CLAIMS TO STAY.

I THINK DETENTION IS AN ESSENTIAL PART OF TRUMP'S PLANS.

IF HE WANTS TO DEPORT AS MANY PEOPLE AS HE SAYS HE WANTS TO DEPORT YOU NEED THESE DETENTION CENTERS THERE NOT ONLY TO HOLD PEOPLE WHILE THEY ARE WAITING TO BE DEPORTED BUT ALSO TO COERCE PEOPLE TO LEAVE SCROLLLY AND TO BE A WARNING TO FOLKS NOT TO COME OR TO LEAVE IF THEY ARE HERE.

>> AND YOU KNOW YOU JUST SAID IT.

CRUELTY IS THE POINT.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT STEWART ITSELF, SHANNON, THIS IS CIVIL --THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE CIVIL DETENTION BUT IT LOOKS LIKE A JAIL FROM YOUR DESCRIPTION.

RAZOR WIRE, NOT ENOUGH FACILITIES.

I MEAN PEOPLE APPARENTLY DEFECATING IN SHOWERS BECAUSE THERE AREN'T ENOUGH TOILETS.

MANY ARE CONFESSING TO THESE KINDS OF CONDITIONS BUT WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN ABLE TO VERIFY THAT WHAT THE CONDITIONS THAT MANY PEOPLE FACE DAY IN AND DAY OUT?

>> THIS IS A REALLY KEY POINT HERE.

THESE AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE PRISONS OR JAILS BUT THEY ARE VERY, VERY SIMILAR.

WHEN THE FAMILIES VISIT THEIR LOVED ONES BEHIND A PIECE OF GLASS AND A UNIFORM THAT LOOKS LIKE A PRISON UNIFORM.

IT FEELS LIKE A PRISON.

IN TERMS OF VAIR IDENTIFYING.

THAT'S ONE OF THE BIG CHALLENGES.

A LOT OF THE OVERSIGHT THAT HAS BEEN PROVIDED UNDER PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATIONS OR JUST EASIER FLOW OF LIKE LEGAL REPRESENTATION INSIDE MEANT THERE WERE MORE EYE BAH THAT COULD REPORT BACK WHAT WAS HAPPENING A LOT OF THAT HAS DISAPPEARED.

IT BECOMES HARDER TO VERIFY THIS INFORMATION.

WE KNOW THAT WHEN THERE IS NOT A SPOT LIGHTS ON A PLACE.

WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING THOSE ARE THE KINDS OF CONDITIONS IN WHICH ABUSE AND MISCONDUCT FLOURISH.

SO, AS A REPORTER I'M ALWAYS CONCERNED WHEN OVERSIGHT DISAPPEARS.

>> YEAH.

IN TERMS OF RESPONSIBILITY AND OVERSIGHT WHICH MEMBERS OF CONGRESS HERE IN THE UNITED STATES HAVE POINTED OUT IS A PROBLEM.

TO STEWART IS A TINY ISOLATED COUNTY BUT ONE THAT FINANCIALLY BENEFITS EVERY PERSON DETAINED THERE.

HOW IS, YOU KNOW, THIS KIND OF GEOGRAPHY OF THIS LITTLE TOWN, STEWART IN THE MIDDLE OF IT.

HOW IS THAT PART OF THE STORY?

>> YEAH.

IT'S SO INTERESTING.

STEWART HAS LESS THAN A THOUSAND RESIDENTS.

THERE ARE ON ANY GIVEN DAY 2,000 OR MORE PEOPLE INSIDE STEWART.

WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT THIS PRISON ACTUALLY GETS DOUBLE THE POPULATION OF THIS VERY SMALL TOWN.

WITH THIS VERY SMALL TOWN THAT IS HAVING A LOT OF ECONOMIC ISSUES WHEN YOU SHOW UP TO THE TOWN FOR THE FIRST TIME THE FIRST THING YOU NOTICE IS THERE ARE NO GROCERY STORES.

THERE ARE NO HOTELS, NO MOTELS.

NO SHORT TERM RENTALS.

THERE IS NOWHERE TO SLEEP.

THERE IS NOWHERE TO EAT.

THE NEAREST PLACE TO EAT AND SLEEP OR RENT A PLACE TO STAY OVERNIGHT FOR VISITATION IS ABOUT AN HOUR AWAY.

SO, THIS IS CHALLENGING FOR THE FAMILIES.

SOME OF THE FAMILIES THAT WE MET IN OUR REPORTING HAD TRAVELED EIGHT OR NINE HOURS TO BE ABLE TO GET DOWN TO GEORGIA.

SO IMAGINE YOU GET THERE ON A SATURDAY, YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO VISIT THE NEXT DAY BECAUSE VISITATION STARTS OVER ON SUNDAY BUT THERE'S NOWHERE TO SLEEP.

THERE'S NOWHERE TO STAY.

THERE'S A TINY GAS STATION WITH TWO PUMPS IN TOWN WHERE PEOPLE WILL SOMETIMES PARK THEIR CARS.

IT KIND OF HAS SORT OF CREATED A SPACE TO SORT OF TRY AND SOLVE SOME OF THESE ISSUES BUT I THINK IT'S IN A WAY IT MAKES YOU SORT OF REALIZE JUST HOW ISOLATED THESE FOLKS ARE.

WHEN FAMILY CANNOT GET TO YOU, WHEN FAMILY CANNOT TRAVEL, WHEN YOU MAKE THE PRISON SO FARAWAY, SO PUT IN A PLACE THAT IS NOT OPEN TO VISITORS I THINK IN A WAY THIS FEEDS IN TO WHAT SHANNON WAS SAYING.

YOU HAVE --THESE REPORTS OF TERRIBLE CONDITIONS BUT IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO GET THE REPORTS OUT.

IT'S DIFFICULT IF PEOPLE CAN'T SPEAK TO THEIR FAMILIES.

THERE ARE NO LAWYERS IN THIS TOWN.

>> AND WE ARE LOOKING AT PICTURES IN FACT RIGHT THERE.

IN TERMS OF WHAT THIS PLACE ITSELF MEANS TO THESE FAMILIES YOU HAVE BEEN SPEAKING TO THEM AND A REMINDER THAT SOME OF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE DETAINED HAVE BEEN IN THE UNITED STATES FOR DECADES, MANY OF THEM.

>> YEAH.

THAT'S AN EXCELLENT POINT.

I HAVE BEEN COVERING IMMIGRATION ALMOST 20 YEARS ONE OF THE THINGS I FOUND THE MOST SURPRISING AND SHOCKING WAS THE FACT THAT ALMOST EVERY FAMILY THAT WE SPOKE TO THAT WEEKEND THERE WERE 60 VISITORS THE WEEKEND THAT WE SPENT THERE.

ALMOST EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM --THE PERSON THAT WAS DETAINED HAD BEEN IN THE UNITED STATES AT LEAST A DECADE IF NOT DECADES.

WE SPOKE WITH A FAMILY WHOSE FATHER ARRIVED IN THE UNITED STATES WHEN HE WAS VERY YOUNG TO BE --TO WORK IN AGRICULTURAL AND TO BE A --TO BE A FARM WORKER WHO IS NOW IN LATE 50s.

THIS MAN ARRIVED WHEN HE WAS A CHILD AND HAS BEEN HERE, BUILT A LIFE IN THIS COUNTRY.

THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE ARE SEEING A LOT.

FAMILY THAT HAVE BEEN HERE FOR A VERY LONG TIME ARE SUDDENLY PUT IN THIS SITUATION.

IT'S NOT JUST PEOPLE THAT ARE CROSSING THE BORDER IT'S PEOPLE THAT HAVE FAMILIES, BUSINESSES AND THAT ARE DOING POSITIVE THINGS IN THE COMMUNITY AND ALSO PEOPLE THAT WE SPOKE WITH THAT TOLD US THAT THEIR LOVED ONE HAD A WORK PERMIT, A DRIVER'S LICENSE WHEN THEY WERE DETAINED AND ARRESTED, HAD GREEN CARD, HAD AN ADJUSTMENT APPLICATION GOING THROUGH IMMIGRATION IN THIS MOMENT.

SO PEOPLE THAT WERE ACTUALLY TRYING TO DO THINGS THE RIGHT WAY IT DIDN'T MATTER.

>> AND WE DO HAVE, YOU KNOW REPORT THAT UNITED STATES VETERANS WHO SERVED IN THE MILITARY PHORIAERS AND YEARS AT THE STEWART DETENTION CENTER AT THIS HOUR.

YOU KNOW, IN TERMS OF THE FACILITY IT'S REALLY BUILT ON THIS IDEA OF RADICAL HOSPITALITY.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN IN TERMS OF THE VOLUNTEERS, HOW THEY ARE TRAINED.

WHEN I WHAT WAS READING THROUGH IT ALMOST SEEMED LIKE A PLACE OF REFUGE FOR THE KIND OF TRAUMA THAT SOME OF THESE FAMILIES GO THROUGH WHEN THEY GO SEE THEIR LOVED ONES.

>> I'M SO GLAD ARE YOU BRINGING THIS UP.

WE HAVE TALKED A LOT ABOUT THE TRAGEDY OF THE DETENTION CENTER.

IT WAS ALSO JUST REALLY BEAUTIFUL TO BE IN THIS PLACE THAT HAD OPENED ITS DOORS FOR ANYONE WHO NEEDED THEIR SERVICES.

A LOT OF THE VOLUNTEERS WE SPOKE TO TALKED ABOUT HOW IN THIS MOMENT IN THE UNITED STATES IT CAN BE VERY CHALLENGING TO SEE THINGS YOU DISAGREE WITH HAPPENING ALL ROUND YOU AND NOT KNOWING HOW TO TAKE ACTION.

YOU KNOW THEY WEREN'T ABLE TO CHANGE THE ENTIRE IMMIGRATION SYSTEM BUT THEY COULD SHOW UP AND DO LAUNDRY AND CHANGE BED SHEETS THEY COULD MAKE A SANDWHICH THEY COULD FIND SOME CONCRETE WAY TO SERVE THEIR NEIGHBORS, TO SERVE THE PEOPLE THAT THEY CARED ABOUT EVEN IF THEY WERE STRANGERS.

SO I THINK THAT ONE OF THE THING THAT WAS STRIKING ABOUT VISITING THIS PLACE AND THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE -- SAID THIS THAT IN THE MIDDLE OF ALL THIS TRAGEDY THERE IS SOMETHING YOU CAN DO.

THERE ARE WAYS YOU CAN ACT AND I FOUND THAT VERYSTRIKING I THOUGHT IT WAS THIS RADICAL HOSPITALITY MEANT TO THEM.

THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO SPOKE YOUR LANGUAGE, SOMETIMES.

WE MET ONE FAMILY WHERE THE GRANDMOTHER SPOKE RUSSIAN.

SINCE HER SON HAD BEEN ARRESTED THERE WERE NO OTHER RUSSIAN SPEAKERS IN THE HOUSE SHE HASN'T BEEN ABLE TO SPEAK TO ANYBODY AND THERE WAS A VOLUNTEER WHO SPOKE RUSSIAN THAT WEEKEND.

JUST TO SEE THE RELIEF ON HER FACE BEING ABLE TO TALK TO SOMEBODY ABOUT WHAT HAD HAPPENED TO HER IN THE LAST WEEK.

THAT WAS REALLY, REALLY MEANINGFUL.

>> I'M SURE VERY MEANINGFUL POINT OF SUPPORT FOR THAT WOMAN AND OTHERS.

YOU KNOW THE CRUELTY IS THE POINT.

IS SOMETHING THAT SHE SAID IN TERMS OFS THIS SOMETHING SY STEMICA IC.

IF YOU POSE IT FROM THE WAY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WANTS TO SEE RESULTS.

CROSSINGS DOWN THE ADMINISTRATION SAID DETERRANT IS THE POINT.

IF FEWER PEOPLE ARE ATTEMPTING TO COME DOES THAT MEAN THAT THIS STRATEGY IS ACTUALLY SUCCESSFUL FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

>> I MEAN IT'S HARD TO GET INTO THE HEAD.

I GUESS YOU COULD SAY THAT IF WE ARE JUST LOOKING AT NUMBERS.

I THINK THE MORE IMPORTANT THING IS THE EFFECTS THAT IT'S HAVING ON AMERICAN CITIZENS.

YOU KNOW, THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE THAT ARE CURRENTLY IN ICE CUSTODY ARE MEMBERS OF A MIXED STATUS HOUSEHOLD WHICH MEANS AMERICAN CITIZENS PARTNERS, HUSBAND, WIFE, CHILDREN, BUSINESSES THAT ARE BEING RUN, HOME THAT ARE HAVING, YOU KNOW, TO GET SOLD.

MONEY THAT'S NOT GOING INTO THE ECONOMY, RIGHT?

I THINK IT'S VERY, YOU HAVE TO KIND OF WEIGH IT IN A BIGGER WAY.

I WILL SAY, ONE THING THAT I THINK IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO THINK ABOUT IS, YOU KNOW, WHAT DO WE WANT TO STAND FOR AS A COUNTRY?

YOU KNOW WHAT DO WE WANT TO STAND FOR?

THE PROMISES THAT TRUMP MADE REALLY WERE AROUND DETAINING PEOPLE THAT WERE CRIMINALS.

THE PROMISE WASN'T JUST LOCKING PEOPLE UP.

IT WAS LOCKING UP CRIMINALS.

AS WE KNOW I BELIEVE THE CURRENT NUMBER, THE LATEST NUMBER IS THAT 73% OF PEOPLE IN ICE CUSTODY DO NOT HAVE A CRIMINAL RECORD.

IN THAT SENSE I WILL SAY IT'S AN UTTER FAILURE.

>> AND I ONLY HAVE ABOUT 30 SECONDS LEFT BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU, SOME PEOPLE ADMIT TO HAVING VOTED FOR THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND NOW THEY ARE WONDERING WHAT THEIR DECISION HAS BROUGHT TO THEIR OWN FAMILIES.

>> YEAH.

AND THAT'S ONE OF THE STORIES ONE OF THE PEOPLE WE SPOKE TO WHILE WE WERE THERE HAD A SIMILAR SITUATION.

SHE HEARD CRIMINALS AND THOUGHT I WANT TO SAVE COMMUNITY SHE DIDN'T REALIZE IT WOULD MEAN HER FATHER WHO WAS A REFUGE.

>> WE WILL CONTINUE TO FOLLOW THIS STORY CLOSELY.

AGAIN, EXTENSION OF THOSE DETENTION FACILITIES DOSE ON IN THE UNITED STATES.

WE ARE GRATEFUL TO BOTH OF YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

> >> THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S IMMIGRATION CRACK DOWN IS JUST ONE EXAMPLE OF THE CHANGES IN WASHINGTON THIS YEAR FROM AIDE AND FOREIGN POLICY TO TRADE AND BEYOND.

TRUMP HAS UP ENDED UNITED STATES DOCTRINE.

TRANSFORMING INSTITUTIONS AND REDEFINING AMERICA'S PLACE IN THE WORLD.

STAFF WRITER AT THE NEW YORKER JOINS MICHELLE MARTIN TO CUT THROUGH THE NOISE AND IDENTITY THE DEFINING THEMES OF THE PAST TEN MONTHS.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ONCE AGAIN.

>> IT'S GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

>> OBVIOUS HE WILL WE HAVE CALLED YOU BECAUSE YOU FOLLOWED POLITICS AND POLICY IN WASHINGTON AND AROUND THE WORLD FOR MANY YEARS.

WHAT ABOUT THIS YEAR STANDS OUT TO YOU AND I KNOW IT'S HARD TO PICK BECAUSE THERE HAVE BEEN SO MANY IMPORTANT EVENTS THIS YEAR.

ONE AFTER ANOTHER.

WHEN YOU JUST THINK ABOUT THE YEAR IN THE WHOLE.

WHAT STANDS OUT TO YOU?

>> I MEAN LOOK IF THE GOAL WAS TO OVERWHELM LET'S JUST SAY THEY ARE SUCCEEDING AND THEN SOME.

YOU KNOW I --IF ANYTHING I -- THE --YEAR HAS BEEN DEFINED BY A LEVEL OF DISRUPTION IN WASHINGTON THAT IS SOMETHING THAT I SUSPECT WE WILL ALL BE LOOKING BACK TO FOR A LONG TIME.

>> I'M THINKING ABOUT THE FIRST PART OF THE YEAR IS THAT I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO CALL.

THIS GROUP LED BY ELON MUSK WHOSE PROJECT SEEMEDDED TO BE TO DESTROY HUMANITARIAN AID AROUND THE WORLD AND THEN THE TARIFF POLICY.

THE MASS PARDONING OF JANUARY 6th DEFENDANTS ON INAUGURATION DAY.

THESE MOVES TO RESHAPE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, PARTICULARLY WITH AN EYE TO THING THAT HAVE BEEN DISTURBING TO CONSERVATIVES LIKE THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION AND THINGS OF THAT SORT.

IS THERE ANYTHING THAT SHOWS A THROUGH LINE THROUGH ALL OF THAT?

>> YEAH.

YOU KNOW THAT IS --I THINK IMPORTANT FOR US TO TRY TO RE CREDIT, KON WITH.

AS I THINK OF IT, YOU KNOW, TRUMP 1.

0 YOU COULD SAY WAS THE COMPLETION OF WHAT TRUMP'S SON- IN-LAW CALLED THE HOSTILE TAKE OVER OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

THAT WAS ACCOMPLISHED REALLY, YOU KNOW BY A COUPLE YEARS INTO TRUMP'S TERM I WOULD SAY.

YOU KNOW AS FIGURES LIKE JON McCAIN LEFT THE SCENE AND WERE REPLACED BY SUPPORTERS OF TRUMP AND HIS MAGA MOVE MEMBER.

I WOULD SAY IF THAT WAS 1.

2, TRUMP 2.

0 IS THE HOSTILE TAKE OVER OF WASHINGTON AND THE TURNING OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH OF THE UNITED STATES FEDERAL GOVERNMENT INTO AN EXTRAORDINARY PERSONAL PLATFORM FOR THE EXPANDED POWERS AND REACH OR OVER REACH AS THE CASE MAY BE ONE OF ONE MAN THIS IS SOMETHING THAT AGAIN I THINK WILL BE STUDYING FOR MANY, MANY DECADES TO COME WHICH IS THE POWER IN THE FORM OF ONE MAN IN THE OVAL OFFICE AND THE IDEA THAT THE CONGRESS HAS LARGELY STEPPED ASIDE INCLUDING EVEN GIVING UP MANY OF ITS CONSTITUTIONAL ASSIGNED FUNCTIONS.

THERE WHATS A MOMENT RECENTLY THAT WAS SO TELLING WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID, YOU KNOW, I FEEL LIKE I'M THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE AS WELL AS THE PRESIDENT AND IN SOME WAYS YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH THAT.

AGAIN, THIS INCREDIBLE GATHERING OF PERSONALIZED EXECUTIVE POWER IN THE PRESIDENCY.

WE DON'T KNOW YET TO WHAT EXTENT IF AT ALL THIS TRUMP APPOINTED CONSERVATIVE MAJORITY IN THE SUPREME COURT MAY ACT TO CONSTRAIN HIM.

WE DIDN'T KNOW IF THE VOTERS ULTIMATELY WILL REBUKE THIS AND RESTRAIN IT OR ROLL IT BACK IN THE MIDTERMS.

FOR NOW, 2025 IS THE YEAR THAT AMERICA GOT A DIFFERENT KIND OF PRESIDENCY.

>> OF ALL THE THINGS THAT WE ARE THINKING ABOUT HERE WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE YEAR.

THERE ARE THINGS THAT ARE REALLY VISIBLE INSIDE WASHINGTON.

THERE ARE THINGS THAT ARE VISIBLE OUTSIDE OF WASHINGTON.

WHAT ARE THE THINGS THAT YOU THINK MIGHT BE MOST VISIBLE OUTSIDE OF WASHINGTON?

>> HE SAID THAT HE WAS GOING TO BE THE PRESIDENT TO BRING BACK THE ECONOMY, WHO WAS GOING TO STOP INFLATION.

THE PRESIDENT WHO WAS GOING TO RESTORE KIND OF THE WAY THINGS WERE BEFORE THE COVID PANDEMIC DISRUPTED THE UNITED STATES AND THE WORLD.

THAT I THINK IS WHERE IT'S PRETTY REMARKABLE THAT HE HAS LOST --THE VERY PEOPLE WHO BROUGHT HIM BACK TO THE PRESIDENCY.

THOSE KIND OF NONFREQUENT VOTERS, THE INDEPENDENTS THAT YOUNG PEOPLE WHO THOUGHT OKAY, WELL THINGS AREN'T GOING WELL AND I'M REALLY UNHAPPY ABOUT THE STATE OF THINGS IN THE ECONOMY.

I'M UNHAPPY ABOUT HOW MUCH I HAVE TO PAY AND HERE WE ARE NOT EVEN A YEAR LATER AND IN FACT AMERICANS EVEN MORE UPSET ABOUT THE STATE OF THE ECONOMY THAN THEY WERE A YEAR AGO WHEN THEY ELECTED DONALD TRUMP TO FIX IT.

YOU KNOW HE PROMISED A LOT OF THINGS THAT HE WAS GOING TO DO ON DAY ONE HE PROMISED HE WAS GOING TO SETTLE THE WAR IN UKRAINE IN 24 HOURS.

HE HASN'T DONE THAT.

MOST IMPORTANTLY FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF THE AMERICAN ELECTION HE PROMISED HE WAS GOING TO BRING PRICES DOWN ON DAY ONE OF HIS SECOND PRESIDENCY AND RESTORE THE ECONOMY.

INSTEAD WHERE WE ARE IS WE HAVE ESSENTIALLY THE SAME LEVEL OF INFLATION NOW THAT WE DID A YEAR AGO WHEN DONALD TRUMP WAS CAMPAIGNING AGAINST THE JOE BIDEN ECONOMY.

HE SAID THAT THE 3% INFLATION AT THAT TIME WAS LITERALLY LIKE THE WORST INFLATION IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD WHICH OF COURSE IT WASN'T.

IT WASN'T EVEN THE WORST INFLATION IN MODERN TIMES IN THE UNITED STATES.

DONALD TRUMP CAMPAIGNED AGAINST THAT LEVEL OF INFLATION.

A YEAR LATER WE HAVE 3% INFLATION ESSENTIALLY THE EXACT SAME NUMBERS THAT WE DID ON THE EVE OF THE ELECTION AND NOW DONALD TRUMP IS CALLING THIS ANNA FORDABLE.

THAT'S JUST NOT TRUE.

VERY SIMILAR, VERY SIMILAR IN SOME WAYS TO THE LEVEL OF DENIAL THAT WE SAW FROM THE FORMER PRESIDENT BIDEN.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT IMMIGRATION.

HIS POLLS HAVE DECLINED.

MAYBE NOT WITH HIS COR, SUPPORTERS BECAUSE HE HAS A CORE GROUP WHO SEEM TO SUPPORT HIM NO MATTER WHAT BUT IT DOES SEEM THERE A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT ARE DISTURBED BY THE WAY HIS IMMIGRATION POLICY IS UNFOLDING.

YOU KNOW THEY ARE SEEING THESE IMAGES OF PEOPLE, WOMEN BEING DRAGGED FROM THEIR CARS, PARENTS BEING ARRESTED IN FRONT OF THEIR KIDS WHEN THEY DROPPED THEM OFF.

HOW DO YOU THINK THIS IS PLAYING.

HOW DO YOU ASSESS HOW THIS IS GOING.

>> I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT T WAS SOMETHING NOT ONLY THAT TRUMP CAMPAIGNED ON BUT WAS VERY MUCH A FACTOR FOR HIS CORE SUPPORTERS AND I REMEMBER VIVIDLY BEING AT THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL CONVENTION IN MILWAUKEE AND WHEN HE SAID MASS DEPORTATION NOW THERE WERE PREPRINTED SIGNS AND IT WAS ONE OF THE ONLY THINGS ASIDE FROM THE MENTION OF HIS NAME ITSELF THAT AUDIENCE REALLY WENT CRAZY FOR.

THEY WERE STIRRED UP AND RALLIED BY THAT.

THEY HELD UP THE MASS DEPORTATION NOW SIGNS.

THE OTHER ISSUE BY THE WAY THAT REALLY SEEMED TO EXCITE THAT CORE GROUP OF SUPPORTERS IT WAS ANY MENTION OF LIKE MEN PLAYING WOMEN'S SPORTS OR TRANSISSUES.

THOSE WERE THE TWO THINGS THAT REALLY SHOWED THE CULTURE WAR AS IT PLAYED OUT IN THE 2024 CAMPAIGN.

FLASH FORWARD.

HE IS EXECUTING ON THAT AS YOU SAID WE ARE NOW LIVING IN THIS WORLD OF THESE KIND OF HORRIBLE SHOCK VIDEOS.

DO YOU AVERT YOUR GAUZE, DO YOU FEEL YOU THAT NEED TO LOOK AT THEM BECAUSE IT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING IN YOUR COUNTRY.

IT'S A PAINFUL ASPECT OF KIND OF THE BACKDROP IF YOU WILL TO THE TRUMP 2.

4 PRESIDENCY.

YOU ALSO MENTIONED TRUMP'S DECLINING POLL NUMBERS.

THIS I THINK IS VERY SIGNIFICANT.

AGAIN AS I'M LOOKING FOR DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE FIRST TERM AND THE SECOND TERM.

DONALD TRUMP IN THE FIRST TERM WAS A VERY UNPOPULAR PRESIDENT.

THE MOST UNPOPULAR SINCE PUBLIC POLLING WAS TAKEN, OKAY.

CONSISTENTLY.

WHAT'S DIFFERENT IS THAT BACK IN THE FIRST TERM TRUMP WAS GENERALLY GETTING PRETTY GOOD MARKS ON THINGS LIKE THE ECONOMY, EVEN WHERE HE WAS SEEN AS PERSONALLY POLARIZING OR UNPLEASANT TO VOTERS.

THEY GAVE HIM FOR CREDIT FOR DELIVERING ON THE ECONOMIES EVEN IF THEY DON'T LIKE THE PERSONALITY.

NOW HE IS EVEN MORE UNDER WATER IN THE POLLS ON THINGS LIKE THE ECONOMY THAN HE IS OVERALL IN HIS NEGATIVE APPROVAL RATINGS.

G ACLU P JUST FOUND THAT TRUMP HAD THE LOWEST NUMBERS OF HIS TWO PRESIDENCIES INCLUDING A 60% DISAPPROVAL RATING BUT EVEN MORE DISAPPROVE ALON THE ECONOMY.

EVEN ON IMMIGRATION WHERE BROADLY SPEAKING EVEN MANY DEMOCRATS AND INDEPENDENTS HAD SUPPORTED THE IDEA OF CLOSING THE BORDER OR MAKING IT LESS PERM EAB LE.

A LOT OF DEMOCRATS BELIEVE THEIR OWN PARTY SCREWED UP AND JOE BIDEN SCREWED UP AS PRESIDENT IN ALLOWING OUT OF CONTROL ILLEGAL MIGRATION INTO THE COUNTRY.

WHILE THERE WAS A SUPPORT IN THE PUBLIC IT'S THESE TACTICS THAT YOU MENTIONED I THINK THAT HAVE REALLY STARTED TO CAUSE A BACKLASH.

YOU KNOW THE IDEA THAT IT'S NOT JUST THE CRIMINAL ILLEGAL MIGRANTS THAT HE INITIALLY TOLD US THAT HE WAS GOING TO GO AFTER BUT THAT IT'S REACHING INTO, YOU KNOW, ESSENTIALLY PEACEFUL, CIVIL SOCIETY IN WAY THAT PEOPLE DO NOT SUPPORT AND DID NOT EXPECT.

>> THE OTHER INTERESTING THING THAT'S HAPPENED THIS WEEK HATS RELATED TO IMMIGRATION IS THE NATIONAL SECURITY STRATEGY WAS RELEASED AND IT'S --IT SITES IMMIGRATION TO EUROPE AS A PROBLEM.

THE WAY IT WAS DESCRIBED IS WHAT --THE ERASURE OF CIVILIZATION DUE TO IMMIGRATION.

HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT AND WHAT DOES THIS TELL US ABOUT TRUMP'S VIEW OF THE RELATIONSHIP THAT HE THINKS THE UNITED STATES SHOULD HAVE WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD.

>> YEAH.

I MEAN THAT IS A PRETTY RADICAL DOCUMENT.

IT'S A PRETTY DISRUPTIVE DOCUMENT.

IT HAS A WORLD VIEW THAT IS VERY, VERY INCONSISTENT WITH THE WORLD VIEWS OF ANY MODERN PRESIDENT WHETHER DEMOCRATIC OR REPUBLICAN.

IT ESSENTIALLY ABDICATES AND SAID WE ARE MOVING ON FROM THE IDEA OF THE UNITED STATES AS THIS GLOBAL SUPER POWER AND GUARANTEEING THE LIBERAL ORDER.

I'M OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER WHEN AMERICAN PRESIDENTS USED TO SPEAK OF EXPORTING DEMOCRACY TO THE WORLD DONALD TRUMP IS NOW TALKING ABOUT EXPORTING RIGHT WING RACISM TO EUROPE WHICH IS REALLY SOMETHING REMARKABLE AS YOU MAY EXPECT.

THIS HAS OCCASION IN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF BOTH BACKLASH AND I THINK REALLY SOUL SEARCHING AMONG EUROPEAN LEADERS BECAUSE REALLY NOT JUST SINCE THE END OF THE COLD WAR BUT SINCE THE END OF WORLD WAR IT'S THE PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND WESTERN EUROPE THAT HAS BEEN THE ANCHOR OF GLOBAL SECURITY IN MANY WAYS AND WHAT DONALD TRUMP IS SAYING IS THAT ACTUALLY IN MY FIRST TERM I TALKED ABOUT PAY MORE FOR THE SECURITY NOW I'M SAYING, YEAH, I'M NOT REALLY IN ON THE DEAL.

IT TELLS YOU IN MANY WAYS MUCH WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW THAT THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE REACTED FAVORABLY TO THE NEW NATIONAL SECURITY STRATEGY OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS A KREML >>ANNOUNCER: IN, LIN AND YOU HAVE THE KREMLIN WELCOMING NATIONAL SECURITY STRATEGY SEE THAT IT WAS REPEAT WHAT RUSSIA ITSELF HAS SAID SAD ABOUT SECURITY.

IT TALKS ABOUT ENDING A WORLD IN WHICH NATO IS CONTINUING TO EXPAND.

IT TALKS ABOUT THE UNITED STATES ESSENTIALLY DESTABILIZING THE GOVERNMENTS THAT IT DOESN'T LIKE OF MANY OF IT'S WESTERN EUROPEAN ALLI ES WORKING TO DEPOSE THOSE LEADERS.

THAT'S JUST A REMARKABLE STATE.

IT LED ONE SENIOR EUROPEAN I SPOKE WITH TO SAY, YOU KNOW, MY CONCERN ISN'T SO MUCH ANY MORE THAT THE UNITED STATES IS NOT ON THIS --NOT WORKING TO HELP UKRAINE AND EUROPE BUT THAT THE UNITED STATES IS NOW ACTIVELY SWITCHING SIDES.

THAT'S NUMBER ONE.

NUMBER TWO.

I THINK THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT IS THAT TRUMP IN HIS CAMPAIGN, AND IN HIS FIRST YEAR OF HIS PRESIDENCY HAS ADVANCED A PRETTY RADICAL IDEA OF NATIONAL SECURITY IN WHICH THE UNITED STATES BASICALLY IS FOCUSED MOSTLY ON THE WESTERN AREA, KIND OF THE INFLUENCE, ALMOST A 19th CENTURY VIEW OF CAVRING UP THE WORLD WITH THE OTHER POWERS LIKE RUSSIA AND CHINA BUT ALSO THAT IT SHOULD OPERATE WITH IMPUNITY WITH IN THE WEST AND THAT THEY ARE DEFINING NATIONAL SECURITY THREATS AS COMING FROM THE ENEMY WITH IN.

THAT'S SOMETHING TRUMP SAID ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT HE REPEATED AND PETE HEGSETH SAID IN.

HE SAID WE SHOULD USE THE UNITED STATES MILTON THE STREETS OF OUR OWN CITIES AND THAT IT'S ACTUALLY DOMESTIC DISTURBANCES THAT POSE A NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT AND AS YOU KNOW OF COURSE HE IS KIND OF STARTED TO FOLLOW THROUGH ON THAT BY DEPLOYING TROOPS TO AMERICAN CITIES ON MADE UP PRETEXT OF CRIME WAVE THAT DON'T EXIST AND OVER THE OBJECTIONS OF THOSE CITIES ELECT LEADERSHIP.

IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT WORDS ANYMORE.

I THINK THAT'S THE KEY POINT.

>> THE PRESIDENT'S --HOW CAN WE PUT THIS?

SEEMS TO BE VERY COMMITTED TO ENRICHIN, HIMSELF IN THIS CURRENT VACATION.

IN HIS FIRST TERM IN OFFICE HE SAID THAT HE WOULD PUT HIS HOLDINGS INTO A BLIND TRUST BUT IN THIS ADMINISTRATION, IN THIS CURRENT TERM THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE MUCH CONCERN ABOUT APPEARANCES OFCONFLICTS.

THERE DOESN'T STEAM TO BE MUCH CONCERN ABOUT WHETHER HIS POLICIES DOVE TAIL PARTICULARLY NICELY WITH HIS OWN PERSONAL FINANCIAL INTERESTS WOULD YOU SAY THAT THAT'S TRUE?

>> I'M GLAD THAT YOU BROUGHT THIS UP I BELIEVE IT'S VERY IMPORTANT.

THE LEVELS OF SELF ENRICHMENT AND ESSENTIALLY THE USE OF THE UNITED STATES PRESIDENCY AS A TOOL FOR THE ENRICHMENT OF DONALD TRUMP AND HIS FAMILY IS A REALLY REMARKABLE ASPECT OF THIS SECOND TERM AND, AGAIN, THE SCALE AND SCOPE OF THAT.

WE ARE TALKING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS THAT ARE COMING INTO THE POCKETS OF THE TRUMP FAMILY AND THOSE IN HIS INNER CIRCLE.

>> AND HOW IS THAT WORKING?

HOW IS THAT HAPPENING HAPPENING?

>> THERE HAS BEEN INCREDIBLE INVESTIGATIVE REPORTING THAT HAS PRODUCED SOME REALLY EYE POPPING EXAMPLES.

FOR EXAMPLE, DONALD TRUMP'S SONS AND HIS PERSONAL GOLFING BUDDY, REAL ESTATE DEVELOPER TURNED PEACE ENVOY TO THE MIDDLE EAST AND RUSSIA AT THE SAME TIME THE TRUMP FAMILY AND THE WHITCOFF FAMILY ARE DOING BUSINESS WITH ARAB GULF EMIRATES AT THE SAME TIME THEY ARE NEGOTIATING MAJOR INTERNATIONAL ACCORDS AND ACTUALLY TWINNING THESE THINGS SO THAT TRUMP AND HIS FAMILY ARE TALKING ABOUT DEALS, BILLIONS OF DOLLARS INVESTED IN A NEW CRYPTO COMPANY RUN BY THE TRUMP KIDS AT THE SAME TIME TRUMP WAS IN THE MIDDLE EAST FOR THE FIRST VISIT, FOREIGN VISIT OF HIS SECOND TERM THAT'S ONE EXAMPLE.

FROM ARE NEW REAL ESTATE DEVELOPMENTS IN COUNTRY AROUND THE WORLD TRUMP BRANDED REAL ESTATE DEVELOPMENTS IN COUNTRY AROUND THE WORLD THAT HAVE MAJOR BUSINESS WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

HE HOSTED THE PEOPLE WHO GAVE MONEY TO A TRUMP CRYPTO ENTERPRISE FOR DINNER AT HIS CLUB OUTSIDE WASHINGTON D. C. AND THEN BROUGHT THEM IN FOR A PERSONAL TOUR OF THE WHITE HOUSE SO, YOU KNOW, AGAIN IT'S THE CO MINGLING THAT IS REALLY REMARKABLE.

WE KNOW, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT THE SAUDI ARABIA GOVERNMENT GROUPS BASICALLY GAVE TWO BILLION DOLLARS IN SEED MONEY TO K USHNERA FIRM.

WELL.

DID ALL THAT MONEY COME FROM SAUDI ARABIA?

THE ANSWER IS THAT WE DON'T KNOW.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING TO US AGAIN.

>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> AND FINALLY FOR US HE GRACES OUR SCREENS AS A TAP DANCING CHIMNEY STREET A FATHER WHO INVENTS A MAGICAL FLYING CAR AND ANNIE VILE SECURITY GUARD AT NEW YORK'S MUSEUM OF NATURAL HISTORY.

THIS WEEK AMERICAN ACTOR DICK VAN DYKE TURNS 100 YEARS OLD AFTER A LIFETIME OF SINGING, DANCING JOKING HIS WAY IN THE TO THE HEARTS OF GENERATIONS.

NOW BACK IN 2013 HE SPOKE TO CNN ABOUT HIS GREATEST ACHIEVEMENTS IN THE ENDURING IMPACT OF HIS FILMS.

>> THE SHOW.

THE FIVE YEARS WITH CARL AND MARY WERE THE MOST FUN I EVER HAD.

THE MOST CREATIVE PERIOD IN MY LIFE.

IT WAS JUST REWRITING AND IT WAS A PARTY EVERY DAY.

OF COURSE MARY POPPING AND CHITTY BANG BANG HAVE LASTED FOR SOME REASON.

THEY KIND OF HAVE LEGS.

EACH GENERATION OF KIDS WHO COME ALONG LIKE THE MOVIE.

I'M --I'M RECOGNIZED IN THE MARKET BY LITTLE CHILDREN WHICH JUST TICKLES ME TO DEATH.

ONE WOMAN SAID TO HER LITTLE DAUGHTER, THAT MAN WAS IN MARY POPPINS AND SHE SHE SAID I MET BURT'S GRANDPA.

>> NOW ASKED ABOUT HIS SECRET TO A LONG AND HAPPY LIFE HE TOLD THE TIMES OF LONDON DANCE YOUR WAY TO BREAKFAST AND ALWAYS BE ON THE LOOK OUT FOR ROMANCE.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY.

> >> AND HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO STAND UP TO TYRANNY?

MAKE SURE TO TUNE INTO TOMORROW'S SHOW WHERE WE WILL LOOK AT THAT QUESTION WITH JONATHAN FREEDLAND.

AN EXTRAORDINARY STORY OF HIDDEN RESISTANCE INSIDE NAZI GERMANY.

>> WHAT THEY HAD IN COMMON WAS THIS DEFIANCE OR RESISTANCE OF HITLER THEY FELT THEY COULD COME TOGETHER WITH KINDRED SPIRITS TRADING INFORMATION, GOSSIP EVEN BUT ALSO KNOW HOW ON HOW TO DO WHAT THEY WERE DOING, WHAT THEY DIDN'T KNOW.

SOMEONE SIT AROUND THAT TABLE WHO THEY THOUGHT WAS ONE OF THEIR OWN, THOUGHT WAS A KINDRED SPIRIT WAS ABOUT TO BETRAY ALL THE REST.

>> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM F YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE THE SHOW SIGN UP FOR THE NEWS LETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.