>>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

THE EU HOLDS CRISIS TALKS AFTER FRIDAY'S MIGRANT SURGE INTO SPANISH TERRITORY.

WE DISCUSSED THE FALLOUT WITH EUROPEAN FOREIGN POLICY EXPERT NATHALIE TOCCI.

> >> AND, MISTRUST AND MISINFORMATION AS FAUCI 'S CONGRESSIONAL TESTIMONY REIGNITES DEBATES OVER COVID- 19.

WE EXPLAIN WHAT WENT WRONG.

> >> THEN, OPEN WIDE THE DOORS.

A NEW MEMOIR DOCUMENTING THE DEVASTATING INCARCERATION OF IRANIAN POET MAHVASH SABET.

WE HEAR FROM THE COEDITOR AND TRANSLATOR OF THE BOOK.

> >> PLUS, THE GAS STATION ATTENDANT.

AN IMMIGRANT FATHER, SEARCHING DAUGHTER, AND THE AMERICAN DREAM.

DIRECTOR KARLA MURTHY TELLS HARI SREENIVASAN ABOUT HER NEW MOVIE.

> >> MAJOR SUPPORT FOR AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS PROVIDED BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON & JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN AND BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

AND, BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M HERE IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

THE EUROPEAN UNION HELD AN EMERGENCY MEETING HERE TODAY AFTER THURSDAY'S SURGE OF MIGRANTS INTO SPANISH TERRITORY.

AROUND 70,000 PEOPLE AND EXPECT THE CROSSED ON AFRICA'S NORTHERN TIP WITH DOZENS DYING.

MOST MIGRANTS HAVE BEEN RETURNED TO MOROCCO BUT THE INCIDENT HAVE REVIVED EUROPE'S IMMIGRATION DEBATE AND FEARS OF FAR RIGHT EXPLOITATIONS.

ALTHOUGH SPAIN'S INTERIOR MINISTER TOLD REPORTERS TODAY THAT MEMBER STATES RECOGNIZE MADRID'S, QUOTE, EFFICIENT RESPONSE, SOME EUROPEAN LEADERS WERE THREATENING TO SUSPEND FREE MOVEMENT FROM SPAIN DESPITE THE CRISIS OCCURRING OFF OF THE EUROPEAN MAINLAND.

SOME ARE ALSO BLAMING SPAIN'S LIBERAL MIGRATION POLICIES AS A PACK THERE WHILE OTHERS ACCUSE MOROCCAN AUTHORITIES OF FACILITATING THE CRISIS.

NATHALIE TOCCI IS AN FORMER POLICY TO THE YOU'S FOREIGN- POLICY CHIEF AND SHE JOINS US FROM ROME.

NATHALIE, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

THERE SEEMS TO BE A CONFLUENCE OF EVENTS THAT LED TO THIS PERFECT STORM WHERE WE SAW THESE INCREDIBLE IMAGES OF THOUSANDS OF MOROCCANS FLEEING INTO CEUTA ON FRIDAY.

LET'S JUST GO THROUGH A FEW OF THEM.

YOU HAD SPAIN SUPREME COURT RULING THAT MIGRANTS ARRIVING BY SEA CAN'T BE SUMMARILY EXPELLED.

WORD SPREAD LIKE WILDFIRE THROUGH MOROCCAN SOCIAL MEDIA AND THEN ON JULY 30 THAT WAS A PUBLIC HOLIDAY AND MOROCCAN GUARDS REPORTEDLY STOPPED PATROLLING .

TALK TO US ABOUT SOME OF THE FACTORS AS YOU SEE IT THAT LED TO WHAT WE SAW FRIDAY.

>> SO, INDEED, FRIDAY, IT LOOKED LIKE THIS WAS A MIGRATION CRISIS.

70,000 PEOPLE CROSSING INTO EUROPEAN TERRITORY INTO THE COURSE OF A FEW HOURS, LEADING BACK TO THE 2015 MIGRATION CRISIS.

IT TURNED OUT TO BE FAIRLY CLEAR THAT THIS WAS A DIFFERENT KIND OF STORY.

TODAY, A FEW DAYS ON, THERE ISN'T A MIGRATION --AN IMMIGRATION CRISIS ANYMORE BECAUSE THOSE 70,000 PEOPLE HAVE ACTUALLY RETURNED, ALL OF THEM IN ALMOST AS RAPID A TIMEFRAME AS THEY CAME IN BACK TO MOROCCO.

THE FACT THAT, INDEED, THEY WERE ALSO SERVED INFORMATION AND DISINFORMATION BEING CIRCULATED INCLUDING, FOR EXAMPLE, THE FACT THAT THESE PEOPLE WOULD NOT BE RETURNED TO SPAIN, INCLUDING THE FACT THAT SPAIN WOULD HAVE REGULARIZED THEM.

THIS IS BEING BASED ON FACTS.

IT IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE THAT SPAIN, OVER THE LAST MONTH, ANNOUNCED THE FACT THAT 500,000 MIGRANTS WOULD BE REGULARIZED AND MADE IT QUITE CLEAR THAT THAT WOULD ONLY APPLY TO PEOPLE THAT HAD LIVED IN SPAIN FOR FIVE YEARS AND HAD LIVED IN SPAIN PRIOR TO JANUARY OF THIS YEAR.

IT IS VERY OBVIOUS THAT THESE PEOPLE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN NATURALIZED.

SO, THE NEXT QUESTION THEN BECOMES WHY IS IT THAT THE SOCIAL MEDIA BUBBLE EXPLODED THE WAY IT DID.

REALLY, RISKING THE LIVES OF TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO DID DIE, HUMAN BEINGS THE STORY REALLY HERE LEADS TO WHAT THE UNDERLYING THOUGHT WAS THIS IS NOT AN IMMIGRATION CRISIS AT ALL, RATHER A MANUFACTURED POLITICAL CRISIS WHICH IS IN THE SENSE THAT THERE IS A SPANISH MOROCCAN DYNAMIC THERE AND EVEN MORE IMPORTANTLY GIVEN THE WAY IN WHICH IT HAS BEEN A FAIRLY COMPLICATED ONE UNDER DONALD TRUMP AND THE WAY IN WHICH SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS, IN PARTICULAR, X AND ELON MUSK HAVE BEEN MANIPULATING THIS, PRECISELY TO SPREAD THAT MISS AND DISINFORMATION.

>> YOU MENTIONED THE DYNAMIC BETWEEN MOROCCO AND SPAIN WHERE THERE IS SOME UNDERLYING TENSION.

THE ARCH RIVALRY HERE IS REALLY BETWEEN MOROCCO AND ALGERIA AND A LONGER HISTORY OVER DISPUTED TERRITORY IN THE WESTERN SAHARA AND IT WAS JUST 10 DAYS AGO THAT PEDRO SANCHEZ VISITED ALGERIA AND ANNOUNCED, QUOTE, A NEW PHASE IN SPANISH ALGERIA RELATIONS.

HE APPEARED TO HAVE ALREADY BURNED ALGERIA IN 2022 BY BACKING MOROCCO'S VIEW OF THE WESTERN SAHARA AUTONOMY PLAN.

SO, HOW MUCH OF A ROLE DOES THAT PLAY IN WHAT TRANSPIRED?

>> OF COURSE, IT IS ALL SPECULATIVE, RIGHT?

WHAT WE ARE DOING HERE IS WE ARE ASSUMING, I THINK, CORRECTLY, THAT MOROCCO BASICALLY, SORT OF, GAVE A NOD AND A WINK FOR THIS TO HAPPEN.

IT PROBABLY WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED HAD THERE NOT BEEN TO AN EXTENT, MOROCCAN COMPLICITY.

SO, THE QUESTION IS, WHY --WAS NOT COMPLICITY THERE?

THOSE ARE THE TWO POSSIBLE EXPLANATIONS THAT AREN'T NECESSARILY MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.

ONE HAS TO DO, INDEED, WITH THE FACT THAT SANCHEZ HAD GONE TO ALGERIA 10 DAYS AGO AND WHILE TRADITIONALLY SPAIN LARGELY BECAUSE OF THE MIGRATION DYNAMICS WITH MOROCCO HAS, IN FACT, BEEN FIGHTING WITH MOROCCO, PARTICULARLY AS FAR AS THE WESTERN SAHARA IS CONCERNED , BASICALLY YOU SEE SPAIN PARTLY TRYING --I WOULD NOT SAY TO REBALANCE THE RELATIONSHIP BUT IT NEEDS TO MEND FENCES WITH ALGERIA GIVEN THE ENERGY RELATIONSHIP WITH ALGERIA IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT NOT JUST TO SPAIN BUT EUROPE.

ONE EXPLANATION IS BASICALLY IT WAS A BILATERAL MOROCCAN LASHING OUT AGAINST SPAIN AND RECOGNIZING MIGRATION IN ORDER TO DO SO.

THEN, OF COURSE, THERE IS THIS BIGGER PART WHICH IS EVEN MORE IMPORTANT WHICH HAS TO DO WITH THE MOROCCAN RELATIONSHIP, PARTICULARLY WITH DONALD TRUMP, AND, TRUMP BASICALLY DESPISING OF PEDRO SANCHEZ'S FAME.

UNLESS WE GET THAT BORDER GLOBAL PICTURE IN, PROBABLY THE ALGERIAN STORY ALONE IS INSUFFICIENT TO EXPLAIN WHY THIS HAPPENED.

>> RIGHT.

MOROCCO IS A STABLE, INVESTOR FRIENDLY, VERY CLOSE U. S. PARTNER.

IT IS COHOSTING THE 2030 WORLD CUP.

TENS OF THOUSANDS OF ITS YOUNG PEOPLE SWARMING TO THE FENCE HAS MANY QUESTIONING HOW COULD A COUNTRY THAT IS RELATIVELY SUCCESSFUL AND STABLE BE ENDURING SOMETHING LIKE THIS?

I WANT TO PLAY SOUND --YOU MENTIONED A RELATIONSHIP.

YOU MENTIONED PRESIDENT TRUMP.

HE WAS ASKED ABOUT THESE IMAGES.

LET'S PLAY SOME SOUND AS TO HIS VIEW ON IT.

>> YOU KNOW, I SAW SPAIN YESTERDAY AND I WATCHED THE CATASTROPHE THAT TOOK PLACE.

IT WAS A --IT LOOKS LIKE AN INVASION OF A COUNTRY.

RIGHT?

HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE AND THAT SAME THING IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO US IF THE REPUBLICANS DON'T GET ELECTED.

WE ARE NOT IN OFFICE, OUR COUNTRY WILL BE INVADED AT LEVELS THAT MADE SPAIN LOOK SMALLTIME.

>> AND, HIS SECRETARY OF STATE MARCO RUBIO HAS ACCUSED PEDRO SANCHEZ OF DELIBERATELY FACILITATING MASS MIGRATION INTO EUROPE.

YOU MENTIONED THE AMNESTY PROJECTED AT SOME 500,000 PEOPLE, APPLICATIONS HAVE HIT OVER 1 MILLION, AS YOU KNOW AND HIS OWN INTERIOR MINISTER -- SANCHEZ'S INTERIOR MINISTER WARNED LAST YEAR THAT THE REGULARIZATION ACT COULD ACT AS A PULL FACTOR.

HOW MUCH PRESSURE IS SANCHEZ ACTUALLY UNDER?

HE IS FACING ELECTIONS NEXT SUMMER.

>> WELL, I MEAN, THERE IS PRESSURE BUT I ACTUALLY THINK THAT SPAIN, IN MANY RESPECTS, IS THE ENVY OF EUROPE.

THIS IS THE COUNTRY --IT BASICALLY SORT OF TOP OF THE RANKS, BOTTOM OF THE RANKING IN TERMS OF ENERGY CRISIS, LARGELY BECAUSE OF THE SUPPLY FORWARD .

THIS IS BASIC --SPAIN IS DOING WELL AND IS REGULAR RISING MIGRANTS, PRECISELY BECAUSE IT IS DOING WELL OR IT IS DOING WELL BECAUSE IT IS REGULAR RISING MIGRANTS.

THE INTERESTING ASPECT OF THIS IS JUST HOW BOLD SOME OF THE THINGS WE HEARD --YOU WERE MENTIONING RUBIO'S STATEMENT.

ACTUALLY SAYING PRETTY STRICT IN TERMS OF IRREGULAR MIGRANTS.

ON THE ONE HAND IT IS REGULARIZED MIGRANTS THAT ARE LIVING IN SPAIN FOR MANY YEARS AND HAVE BEEN WORKING IN SPAIN AND PAYING TAXES IN SPAIN AND ON THE OTHER HAND, IF YOU COMPARE PROGRESSIVE SPAIN AND FAR RIGHT ITALY, MY OWN COUNTRY, AND SEE THE NUMBER OF RETURNS OF IRREGULAR MIGRANTS , IT IS MUCH, MUCH HIGHER.

SOMETHING LIKE THREE TIMES HIGHER IN SPAIN THAN IN ITALY.

RIGHT?

A COUNTRY LIKE ITALY HAS NOT BEEN ANNOUNCING REGULARIZATION BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF HOW MANY MIGRANTS IN ITALY HAVE BEEN REGULARIZED , IT IS MORE OR LESS --IT IS HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, BASICALLY.

>> THIS IS WHAT THE ECONOMY HAS.

>> LET'S PULL UP SOME DATA THAT THIS BACKS UP THE POINT YOU'RE MAKING TODAY.

ILLEGAL CROSSINGS INTO THE EU OVERALL FELL FROM 37% IN THE FIRST HALF OF THIS YEAR ALONE.

A RIVAL TO SPAIN FELL MORE THAN 40% LAST YEAR.

THAT IS BY MADRID'S OWN FIGURES.

YET, I HAVE TO ASK YOU, NATHALIE, IT IS IMAGES LIKE THAT, WE SEE MORE OF A CONCILIATORY APPROACH TODAY FROM THE EU AND YOU MENTIONED HOW THE RESPONSE HAS BEEN FROM COUNTRIES LIKE ITALY, YOUR OWN, AND GEORGE MALONEY'S.

THIS IS --IT IS NOT EVEN PART OF THE SAME THING AND YOU HAVE THESE LEADERS SAYING THAT NOW THEY SHOULD SUSPEND --THEY SHOULD BE SUSPENDED, SHANE SHOULD BE FROM THE SCHENGEN.

THAT IS WHAT THEY SAID ON FRIDAY.

DO IMAGES, LIKE THE ONE WE SAUCE TRUMP --TRUMP STATISTICS AND THE NUMBERS YOU JUST LAID OUT YOURSELF?

>> IN ITALY, THEN AND THERE, IT FELT LIKE THIS WAS A MIGRATION CRISIS.

OH MY GOD.

THE FACT THAT THE MINISTERS TODAY STRUCK A VERY, VERY DIFFERENT NOTE , RIGHT, AND IT WAS ALL ABOUT SOLIDARITY WITH SPAIN AND HOW EFFECTIVE SPAIN HAD BEEN IN DEALING WITH THIS IS BECAUSE I THINK THEY UNDERSTOOD, PERHAPS, A FEW DAYS TOO LATE, THAT THEY HAD BEEN PLAYED.

THIS IS WHY I THINK --THERE IS A STORY ABOUT IMAGES AND NARRATIVE AND PANIC AND THEN THERE IS A STORY ABOUT FACT.

ON TOP OF IT, THERE IS A POLITICAL MANIPULATION, POLITICALLY --PARTICULARLY BY EXTERNAL PLAYERS, TRANSIT COUNTRIES, ORIGIN COUNTRIES LIKE MOROCCO, OR WE COULD BE TALKING ABOUT TURKEY OR LIBYA OR EGYPT, THESE ARE GLOBAL POWERS LIKE THE UNITED STATES THAT HAVE JUMPED ONTO THIS, RIGHT?

IN ORDER TO SO THAT POSITION, SO THAT FRAGMENTATION IN EUROPE.

THE MINISTER TODAY, THE EUROPEAN GOVERNMENT TODAY THAT HAD THAT KNEE-JERK REACTION THREE DAYS AGO UNDERSTOOD THAT THEY WERE ACTUALLY BEING PLAYED AND THEY FELL RIGHT INTO A TRAP AND WHAT THEY TRIED TO DO TODAY IS GRADUALLY FALL OUT OF IT.

>> THEY MAY HAVE SOME EGG ON THEIR FACE AS WELL AND IT WAS NOT JUST THE RIGHT-LEANING MINISTERS AS WELL.

DENMARK'S PRIME MINISTER WAS ALSO SAYING ALL OPTIONS SHOULD BE CONSIDERED AND IT DOES MAKE YOU WONDER, IF YOU ARE SITTING IN MOSCOW OR MINKS RIGHT NOW WHEN YOU ARE LOOKING AT HOW QUICKLY THIS TYPE OF RESPONSE FROM THESE LEADERS, MAYBE IT COULD BE WEAPONIZED.

NATHALIE TOCCI, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US TO HELP RAKE IT ALL DOWN FOR US.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> INTENSE DEBATES ABOUT THE COVID-19 PANDEMIC HAVE RESURFACED AFTER ANTHONY FAUCI'S CONTROVERSIAL CONGRESSIONAL TESTIMONY LAST WEEK .

AFTER OBTAINING -- PRIVATE DIARY, SENATOR RAND PAUL PLACED THE BLAME SQUARELY ON FAUCI AND OTHER PUBLIC HEALTH EXPERTS ALLEGING A COVER- UP AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL.

FAUCI PLEADED THE FIFTH, NOTING PAUL 'S DESIRE TO SEE HIM BEHIND BARS.

BUT, HOW MUCH ARE THE EXPERTS TO BLAME AND WHAT DID THEY GET RIGHT?

DR.

ASHISH JHA SERVED AS THE WHITE HOUSE COVID-19 RESPONSE COORDINATOR UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN AND JOINS THE SHOW TO DISCUSS MORE.

DR.

JHA, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

GREAT TO HAVE YOU ON.

YOU WERE ON THIS WEEKEND WITH MY COLLEAGUE FOLLOWING HER INTERVIEW WHICH GOT A LOT OF PICKUP.

IT WAS A LENGTHY INTERVIEW THAT COVERED A LOT OF GROUND WITH THE HHS SECRETARY ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.

AND I WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHAT HE SAID IN A MOMENT BUT THE OVERALL PICTURE IS NOT A GOOD ONE IN THIS COUNTRY WHEN IT COMES TO TRUST AND PUBLIC HEALTH AND INFORMATION COMING FROM PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICES AS WELL.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBERS, IN MARCH 2020 , MARCH 2020 WAS JUST THE START OF COVID.

85% OF AMERICANS ACROSS BOTH PARTIES, WE SHOULD NOTE, SAID THAT THEY TRUSTED THE CDC FOR HEALTH INFORMATION.

THIS IS ACCORDING TO THE KAISER FAMILY FOUNDATION.

TODAY, THAT NUMBER HAS BEEN CUT DRASTICALLY IN HALF .

THERE YOU SEE IT, 47%.

HOWEVER, 83% OF AMERICANS STILL TRUST THEIR OWN PERSONAL DOCTORS.

SO, HOW DO YOU ASSESS THOSE STATISTICS?

WHAT DID PUBLIC HEALTH OFFICIALS, PERHAPS GET WRONG, THAT PERSONAL DOCTORS DID NOT?

>> FIRST OF ALL, THANKS FOR HAVING ME BACK.

OBVIOUSLY IT WAS A PANDEMIC AROUND THE WORLD AND WE HAD SEEN A REAL DECLINE IN TRUST IN THE INSTITUTION.

MARCH 2020 WAS THE HEIGHT.

IT WAS THE TIME THE WHOLE COUNTRY WAS RALLYING BEHIND THE CDC.

THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT OF THE DECLINE.

IT IS TRUE, PEOPLE STILL TALK TO THEIR POSITIONS -- POSITIONS.

THERE IS A LOT OF TRUST IN THE CDC SCIENTISTS AND SPECIFIC PUBLIC HEALTH EXPERTS INCLUDING DR.

FAUCI WHO STILL GETS PRETTY HIGH REMARKS AND PARTS OF AMERICA.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT THERE WERE THINGS THAT PUBLIC HEALTH OFFICIALS GOT WRONG AND THERE ARE THINGS THAT A LOT OF EXPERTS GOT WRONG.

THE BIGGEST THING IN MY MIND WAS THAT THERE WAS, AT TIME, TOO MUCH CERTAINTY IN A MOMENT WHERE WE CERTAINLY DID NOT KNOW EVERYTHING THAT WE NEEDED TO KNOW.

I THINK ACKNOWLEDGING UNCERTAINTY IN THOSE MOMENTS IS VERY USEFUL.

TOO MANY PUBLIC HEALTH PEOPLE DID NOT DO THAT AND I THINK IN THE LONG RUN , THAT ENDED UP UNDERMINING A LOT.

>> ONE CAN BE SYMPATHETIC.

I REMEMBER IN THOSE EARLY DAYS IN COVERING AND HAVING YOU ON TIME AND TIME AGAIN TO HELP SPEAK TO AMERICANS WHO WERE CONCERNED ABOUT THE LATEST NUMBERS AND HOW IT WOULD IMPACT THEIR FAMILIES.

I REMEMBER EARLY ON, THE MASK DEBATE AND WHEN DR.

FAUCI AND OTHERS WERE SAYING NOT TO WEAR MASKS AND AT THE END IT CAME OUT THAT IN THOSE EARLY TWO WEEKS, THERE WAS A LOT OF CONCERN ABOUT GETTING IT TO THOSE FIRST RESPONDERS AND INTO THE HOSPITALS THAT NEEDED IT MOST.

THAT MADE A SENSE.

WHEN IT CAME TO WHAT BECAME MORE OF A POLITICAL ISSUE AND A PC KIND OF DISCUSSION ABOUT WHERE THIS ACTUAL COVID-19 VIRUS CAME FROM , THAT IS WHERE I THINK PEOPLE STARTED TO GET VERY FRUSTRATED.

YOU TOLD ANNA OVER THE WEEKEND THAT YOU WENT INTO THE WHITE HOUSE IN APRIL 2022 THINKING THAT COVID WAS ALMOST SURELY, NATURALLY --SURELY NATURAL.

NOW, YOU HAVE COME OUT OVER THE WEEKEND, AND THIS MADE A LOT OF HEADLINES AS WELL, SAYING THAT YOU THINK IT WAS A LAB LEAK.

TALK ABOUT THAT AND WHY, LOOKING BACK, WAS THAT SUCH AN EGREGIOUS THING OR CONCLUSION TO MAKE AT THE TIME.

>> YEAH, FIRST OF ALL, THE POINT IS, WE DIDN'T KNOW.

WE STILL DON'T KNOW FOR SURE.

THE REASON I THOUGHT IT WAS MORE LIKELY, MUCH MORE LIKELY TO BE IN NATURAL --IT IS THE MOST SPILLOVER EVENT, MOST PANDEMICS HAVE COME FROM SPILLOVERS.

IT STANDS TO REASON THAT IS PROBABLY WHAT HAPPENED.

THAT WAS MY VIEW .

WHAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT IN UNDERLYING YOUR QUESTION IS WE SHOULD NOT HAVE CUT OFF DEBATE ON THIS.

WE SHOULD NOT HAVE SAID IF YOU THINK IT IS A LAB LEAK SOMEHOW, YOU ARE SPREADING MYSTERY.

SOME PEOPLE DID THAT AND THAT IS VERY UNFORTUNATE.

MY OWN EVOLUTION IN THIS IS THE WAY I HAVE EVOLVED ON A LOT OF ISSUES WHERE I SAW MORE EVIDENCE, I SAW MORE DATA.

THE CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE BEHIND A LAB LEAK GOT STRONGER AND STRONGER OVER TIME.

I HAVE SEEN A LOT OF BRIEFINGS.

WALKING OUT OF THOSE, I THOUGHT, BOY, IT IS PROBABLY A LAB LEAK.

AM I SURE?

I'M NOT SURE.

WE DON'T KNOW FOR SURE BUT THAT KIND OF EVOLUTION IS GOOD.

IT IS NATURAL .

WHEN EVIDENCE CHANGES, PEOPLE'S VIEWS SHOULD CHANGE.

>> SHOULD THAT EVIDENCE BEEN MADE MORE READILY AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC AT THE TIME WHEN YOU SAW IT X >> YEAH.

I HAVE ALWAYS FELT THAT AS MUCH TRANSPARENCY AS POSSIBLE IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

SOME OF THAT INFORMATION HAS BECOME MORE PUBLIC.

THERE IS MORE INFORMATION THAT COULD BE MADE PUBLIC BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, THE REAL ISSUE IS THAT THE TRANSPARENCY HAS TO COME FROM THE INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE RUNNING THE LAB.

LOOK.

IF THIS WAS NOT A LAB LEAK , THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT COULD PUT THIS TO REST MORE OR LESS IMMEDIATELY WITH A LOT MORE INFORMATION AND TRANSPARENCY ABOUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN THE LAB IN THE WEEKS AND MONTHS BEFORE THE OUTBREAK BEGAN.

THEY HAVE NOT DONE THAT.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, THAT IS WHERE THE ACCOUNTABILITY LIES.

>> SIX YEARS ON NOW, WHAT LEVERAGE DOES THE UNITED STATES HAVE AND WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE PRESIDENT TRUMP DO IN TERMS OF GETTING THAT INFORMATION FROM CHINA?

>> WELL, THE PRESIDENT WAS IN CHINA NOT THAT LONG AGO AND COULD HAVE ASKED FOR IT.

YOU HAVE ONGOING CONVERSATIONS WITH THE CHINESE, THERE ARE SPECIFIC THINGS WE COULD HAVE ASKED FOR BUT ALSO, WE NEED TO START PREPARING FOR A FUTURE WHERE WE WILL SEE BOTH NATURAL OUTBREAKS AND LAB LEAKS.

THERE ARE SO MANY LABS IN THE WORLD TODAY.

WHILE IT IS IMPORTANT TO SORT OUT THAT ORIGIN, IT ALSO, ON SOME LEVEL, IS NOT THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION.

THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION IN MY MIND IS HOW DO WE GET PREPARED FOR THE QUESTION OF MATTER WHAT THE SOURCE OF THE NEXT PANDEMIC IS?

>> THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE SADLY DIDN'T HEAR IN THOSE HEARINGS WITH ANTHONY FAUCI NOT JUST BECAUSE HE PLEADED THE FIFTH BUT BECAUSE THERE WERE NO QUESTIONS THAT WERE FORWARD- LOOKING TO HOW TO PREVENT FUTURE OUTBREAKS.

WHAT LESSONS HAVE BEEN LEARNED AND TO MAKE SURE THAT MORE PANDEMICS LIKE THE ONE WE SAW, PERHAPS EVEN MORE SERIOUS AND DEADLY CAN BE HANDLED DIFFERENTLY.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THE CURRENT RIGHT NOW.

WE GOT A PLETHORA OF ISSUES WE ARE DEALING WITH IN THE UNITED STATES AND THE DHHS SECRETARY WAS ASKED ABOUT THIS.

LET'S START WITH MEASLES.

RIGHT NOW WE ARE WELL OVER 2000 CASES, THE WORST IN 35 YEARS.

37 OUTBREAKS.

ELIMINATION STATUS OF THE COUNTRY HAS HELD SINCE 2000 AND IS NOW GENUINELY AT RISK.

ANNA BASS ASKED THE SECRETARY DIRECTLY IF HE TAKES ANY RESPONSIBILITY AND HE SAID NO.

HE SAID THE COMMUNITIES THAT ARE SUFFERING FROM MEASLES ARE ALMOST ALL RELIGIOUS COMMUNITIES AND HE ALSO WENT ON TO BLAME THESE OUTBREAKS ON COMMUNITIES THAT WERE UNDER COVID LOCKDOWN AND THUS, THOSE CHILDREN WERE NOT IMMUNIZED EVEN THOUGH THE NUMBERS DON'T BACK THAT UP BECAUSE THOSE CHILDREN ARE NOW FIVE AND SIX YEARS OLD.

HALF OF THIS YEAR'S CASES ARE 5 TO 19 AND NEARLY 1/3 ARE ADULTS OVER 20.

JUST BREAK DOWN WHAT YOU HEARD FROM THE SECRETARY AND WHERE YOU MIGHT DISAGREE WITH HIM.

>> SURE.

THE SECRETARY SAID, AND THE PART I AGREE WITH IS THAT AMERICA IS NOT ALONE.

THERE ARE OTHER COUNTRIES THAT ARE EXPERIENCING OUTBREAKS AS WELL.

LET'S BE VERY CLEAR.

AMERICA IS EXPERIENCING THE WORST OUTBREAK IT HAS HAD IN 25, 30 YEARS.

THIS YEAR AT THE VERY WORST, LAST YEAR WAS THE WORST UNTIL THIS YEAR.

THE IDEA THAT THE HEALTH SECRETARY AND OUR GOVERNMENT HAS NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT, TO ME, JUSTIFIES LAW.

THE HEALTH SECRETARY HAS ALSO, FOR 25 YEARS, UNDERMINED PEOPLE CONFIDENCE IN VACCINES, HAS QUESTIONED THE EFFICACY AND SAFETY OF THESE VACCINES.

I SEE THAT IS A MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR TO WHAT IS GOING ON.

IT MAKES ZERO SENSE THAT SOMEHOW THE LOCKDOWNS, WHICH WERE A FEW WEEKS IN SOME PLACES, A COUPLE OF MONTHS IN OTHER PLACES, WOULD BE CAUSING THIS.

WE ARE SEEING OUTBREAKS IN SOUTH CAROLINA, CONSERVATIVE STATES.

THEY WERE NOT LOCKDOWN CRAZY.

I JUST THINK HE IS TRYING TO BLAME THE COVID RESPONSE FOR A LOT OF THINGS WHERE HE ACTUALLY, AND THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION HAS A LOT MORE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

>> ANNA DID GET RFK JR.

TO LOOK AT THE CAMERA AND SAY THE PARENT SHOULD VACCINATE THEIR CHILDREN FOR MEASLES.

HE SAID THAT IS AN EFFECTIVE AND EFFICIENT VACCINE, ONE THAT HAS BEEN STUDIED EVEN THOUGH WE CAN GO INTO THE LENGTHY STUDIES THAT HAVE BEEN CONNECTED ON A NUMBER OF OTHER VACCINES THAT HE DOES NOT THINK ARE SAFE.

THAT IS FOR A SEPARATE CONVERSATION BUT AS IT RELATES TO THE MEASLES VACCINE, WHICH SHE SAID PARENTS SHOULD IMMUNIZE THEIR CHILDREN FOR, YOU WERE HEARTENED BY THAT BUT ASIDE FROM HIS SPOKEN WORDS, WHAT MORE WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE THE ADMINISTRATION DO ON THAT FRONT?

>> YEAH, FIRST AND FOREMOST, HE SAID A LOT WAS NOT TRUE.

I WANT TO SEE HEALTH SECRETARY WHO READS THE DATA FAIRLY AND ADVOCATES FOR WHAT IS CLEARLY EVIDENCE-BASED RECOMMENDATIONS.

I HAVE GOT MY KIDS VACCINATED ON SCHEDULE ON TIME.

MY UNDERSTANDING IS HE, HIMSELF GOT HIS KIDS VACCINATED.

HE SHOULD BE ADVOCATING FOR THAT MUCH MORE READILY AND THEN, THE CDC SHOULD BE MUCH MORE PROACTIVE IN HELPING STATES GET THESE OUTBREAKS UNDER CONTROL AND THE BEST WAY TO DO THIS IS TO INCREASE OUR VACCINATION RATES, WHICH THE SECRETARY HAS A LOT OF CAPABILITY WITH A BULLY PULPIT TO ADVOCATE FOR NOT JUST GRUDGINGLY SAYING IT ONCE ON NATIONAL TV.

>> HE ALSO RECOMMENDED THE CHILDHOOD SCHEDULED TO BE CUT FROM 17 DISEASES 211 AND I KNOW THAT IS SOMETHING THAT YOU DISAGREE WITH AS WELL.

DR.

ASHISH JHA, THANK YOU FOR JOINING THE PROGRAM.

I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> WE TURN NOW TO IRAN WHERE THE DOMESTIC CRACKDOWN IS ONLY INTENSIFYING.

RIGHTS GROUPS SAY EXECUTIONS ARE RISING, POLITICAL PRISONERS ARE FACING HARSHER TREATMENT AND DISSENT IS BEING MET WITH AN EVEN HEAVIER HAND.

ONE OF THOSE PRISONERS IS THE ACCLAIMED IRANIAN POET MAHVASH SABET WHO HAS SPENT YEARS BEHIND BARS BECAUSE OF HER FAITH.

ARE POWERFUL NEW MEMOIR, OPEN WIDE THE DOORS, RECOUNTS THE FIRST MONTHS OF HER IMPRISONMENT.

20 NOW IS ITS EDITOR AND CO- TRANSLATOR , BAHIYYIH NAKHJAVANI.

BAHIYYIH, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US TODAY.

IT IS A VERY POWERFUL BOOK AND I WANT TO GET TO YOUR PARTICIPATION HERE AND HOW YOU BECAME INVOLVED BUT LET'S JUST TALK ABOUT HOW IT WAS WRITTEN BECAUSE MAHVASH WROTE THE BOOK INSIDE PRISON.

TAKE US TO HOW YOU GOT A HOLD OF THIS BOOK.

HOW WAS THIS TRANSCRIPT EVEN ABLE TO LEAVE THE PRISON?

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME HERE.

IT IS A REAL HONOR TO BE ABLE TO SPEAK ABOUT MAHVASH AND ON BEHALF OF ALL OF THOSE, LIKE HER, HAVE NO VOICE COMING OUT OF IRAN AT THIS TIME.

FIRST OF ALL, I WOULD LIKE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THE BOOK THAT YOU ARE REFERRING TO, WHICH IS HER MEMOIR, AND THE ACTUAL BULK OF THE MEMOIR WHICH CAME TO SOME THE 750 PAGES BY THE TIME MY CO-TRANSLATOR AND I HAD MANAGED TO TRANSCRIBE IT AND TURNED IT INTO ENGLISH.

THERE IS A DISTINCTION BETWEEN WHAT WE HAVE PUBLISHED, WHICH IS JUST THE VERY BEGINNING OF A 10 YEAR STORY AND WHAT SHE ACTUALLY MANAGED METICULOUSLY WITH GREAT PAIN AND DIFFICULTY TO SCRIBBLE ON TINY BITS OF PAPER, ON TISSUES.

SHE WOULD SPLIT TISSUE PAPERS --I DID ONE TO SHOW YOU HOW EXTRAORDINARY IT IS.

LITTLE SCRAPS OF NEWSPAPER SHE WAS ABLE TO FIND.

ANYTHING.

MARGINS OF BOOKS.

SLOWLY OVER THE COURSE OF THE YEARS, GET THESE LITTLE SCRAPS OF HER MEMOIR SMUGGLED OUT OF THE PRISON.

NOW, OF COURSE, THEY DIDN'T REACH US IMMEDIATELY.

MAHVASH WAS FIRST IN 2008 AND SHE WASN'T ABLE TO START WRITING UNTIL 2012 .

THE LAST SEVEN YEARS OF HER 10 YEAR PRISON SENTENCE WAS WHEN SHE WAS DOING THESE LITTLE SCRIBBLES, PLUS HER POETRY, AND MANAGING SLOWLY TO GET THEM OUT.

I DID NOT SEE THEM UNTIL 2018 WHEN MAHVASH WAS RELEASED FROM PRISON .

IN 2017, SHE CAME AND VISITED THE YEARS AFTERWARDS AND ASKED ME TO WRITE A BOOK BASED ON HER MEMOIRS AND THAT IS WHEN I BEGAN THIS INCREDIBLE JOB.

IT WAS A MOUNTAIN OF NOTES.

IT WAS REALLY A HUGE , HUGE TASK AND WE HAD TO THINK OF WHAT TO DO.

HOW CAN YOU PUBLISH 750 PAGES?

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE.

WE HAD TO MAKE A FEW DECISIONS OF WHERE TO FOCUS AND THAT IS HOW WE LOOKED AT THAT VERY EARLY PART OF THE STORY WHEN SHE WAS FIRST IN A SOLITUDE CONFINEMENT AND THEN IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT AND IT WAS THOSE 10 MONTHS, NINE, 10 MONTHS OF HER 10 YEAR SENTENCE WHICH IS THE SUBSTANCE OF THIS BOOK.

>> YOU JUST DESCRIBED HER EFFORTS THERE TO GET THIS FIRST PART OF THE BOOK PUBLISHED SO THAT READERS, EVERYONE AROUND THE WORLD CAN GET A SENSE NOT ONLY OF HER DEBRIS BUT WHAT SHE ENDURED ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY BECAUSE OF HER FAITH.

LET'S GIVE A LITTLE MORE OF A TIMELINE IN HER LIFE AND PUT IT UP AGAINST THE REGIME BECAUSE THEY COINCIDE IN MANY WAYS.

IN 1979, SHE WAS FIRED AS A SCHOOLTEACHER BECAUSE OF HER FAITH .

IN 2008, SHE WAS ARRESTED AS A LEADER.

10 YEARS IN PRISON, AS YOU NOTED IN 2022, REARRESTED AT THE AGE OF 69, BROKEN KNEECAP ANOTHER DECADE AFTER A ONE HOUR TRIAL.

TODAY SHE IS 73 YEARS OLD, RECOVERING FROM OPEN-HEART SURGERY.

SHE IS ESSENTIALLY ON MEDICAL FURLOUGH, UNDER A TRAVEL BAN RIGHT NOW.

WHAT DOES HER LIFE TELL US AND HER COMMITMENT TO HER FAITH ABOUT THE STRENGTH THAT SHE CARRIES WITH HER AND FROM WHAT WE HAVE SEEN THUS FAR IN WHAT HAS BEEN PUBLISHED?

THERE IS NOTHING THAT STANDS OUT OTHER THAN COMPASSION.

>> YES.

THAT REALLY IS ONE OF THE HALLMARKS OF THIS BOOK.

IT IS A PRISON MEMOIR AND USUALLY PRISON MEMOIRS ARE ABOUT THE INDIVIDUAL WHO IS SUFFERING.

MAHVASH ABSOLUTELY REVERSES ALL OF THE -- FOR A START, SHE JUST FLIPS ALL OF THE MISERY AND TURNS IT IN TO A MAGNANIMITY TOWARD OTHERS .

SHE REALLY HAS TURNED THE DESPAIR THAT ONE NORMALLY FEELS IN THESE CIRCUMSTANCES INTO A KIND OF HOPE AND AS YOU SAY, THAT COMPASSION THAT COMES OUT FROM HER TOWARD OTHERS, IT BECOMES A MEMOIR NOT JUST OF HERSELF BUT IT BECOMES A MEMOIR ABOUT OTHERS, ABOUT THE WOMEN THAT SHE MEETS IN THE PRISON, EVEN ABOUT THE GUARD.

EVEN SHE HAS COMPASSION TOWARD THE --A SORT OF COMIC COMPASSION TOWARD THE INTERROGATORS.

SHE ENDS UP SAYING SHE CAN'T JUST HATE ANYONE.

SHE HAS THIS REMARKABLE CAPACITY FOR SWITCHING MISERY INTO HOPE AND THAT IS ONE OF THE HALLMARKS OF THE BOOK.

THE OTHER THING THAT I MIGHT MENTION IS IN HER STYLE, THERE IS A QUALITY OF HUMOR.

WHEN I MET HER, I WAS REALLY SHOCKED.

THE FIRST TIME I MET HER IN 2018 WHEN SHE CAME OUT OF PRISON, I WAS EXPECTING --WHEN YOU HEAR SOMEONE SUFFERED IN PRISON, YOU ARE THINKING OF THEM OF BEING IN A STATE OF DISARRAY AND MISERY .

NOT AT ALL.

SHE WAS FULL OF HUMOR.

SHE WAS FULL OF JOY.

SHE HAD LIGHT IN HER EYES AND FULL OF HAPPINESS AND I JUST COULDN'T BELIEVE IT.

SHE WAS BREAKING ALL OF THE AND THAT QUALITY IN HER, REALLY BOILS DOWN TO ONE OF THE HALLMARKS WHICH IS CONSTRUCTIVE RESILIENCE, WHICH IS NOT GIVING IN TO A SENSE OF BEING THE VICTIM.

SHE ABSOLUTELY REFUSED TO BE A VICTIM AND THAT IS VERY DISTINCT HERE AND THIS POLICY THAT SHE HAS, AS YOU PUT IT , OF GOING OUT OF HERSELF, WAS ONE OF THE REASONS I AM SO HAPPY TO BE ABLE TO SPEAK ABOUT HER WORK BECAUSE SHE IS TRULY ONE OF MANY IN IRAN WHO ARE SUFFERING, AS YOU KNOW.

ALSO, BEYOND THE COMMUNITY, AS YOU POINTED OUT IN YOUR COMMUNITY BUT THEY HAVE HAD AN EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TIME NOT JUST IN A REVOLUTION BUT THE BEGINNING OF THE EMERGENCY.

IT IS A HOMEGROWN FAITH.

IT WAS BORN IN THE MIDDLE OF THE 19th CENTURY.

FOR 178 YEARS, THE BAHA'I HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF APOSTASY.

NOW IT IS THINLY VEILED IN THE GUISE OF ESPIONAGE, BEING AGENTS OF FOREIGN GOVERNMENT, ALL KINDS OF EGREGIOUS LIES.

DEEP DOWN, IT IS A PROFOUND RELIGIOUS ANIMOSITY TOWARD THE BAHA'I BECAUSE OF THEIR FUNDAMENTAL BELIEF IN THE ONENESS OF GOD, THE ONENESS OF RELIGION AND THE ONENESS OF HUMANKIND AND THESE IDEALS SEEM TO BE A GREAT PROBLEM FOR THE CURRENT REGIME.

>> ESPECIALLY WOMEN WHO HAVE PULLED THOSE IDEAS.

THREE QUARTERS OF THE BAHA'I SUMMONED TO COURT OR PRISON WERE WOMEN LIKE MAHVASH .

I AM WONDERING IF YOU COULD READ US A PASSAGE FROM THIS BOOK THAT YOU TRANSLATED?

>> SURELY.

IT IS IN A PLACE WHERE SHE HAS COME TO THE POINT WHERE SHE IS LOOKING INTO HERSELF AND SHE ASKS HERSELF, YOU KNOW, WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO HER IN THIS CONDITION OF SOLITARY CONFINEMENT AND SHE REALIZES THAT THE SPIRITUAL POWER TO OVERCOME THE FEARS AND DEFEAT THAT SURROUND US, ALL THESE MARBLES I HAVE HEARD IN SILENCE.

THEN, TO MY ACTIVE DISBELIEF, I FOUND THAT I WAS NOT ONLY GROWN ACCUSTOMED TO SOLITARY CONFINEMENT, BUT BEGINNING TO APPRECIATE THE VALUE OF IT.

IN FACT, I WAS LEARNING THE MEANING OF FREE WILL AND THAT GREAT CELL.

SOLITARY CONFINEMENT HAD BEEN FORCED ON ME, YES, BUT IT WAS A TO ME HOW I CHOSE TO LIVE WITH IT.

IT WAS MY DECISION WHETHER TO ACCEPT IT CONSCIOUSLY OR TO ENDURE IT WITH TURMOIL, RESENTMENT.

THE CHOICE WAS ENTIRELY MINE.

I WAS FREE TO DO AS I WILLED.

>> THAT IS INCREDIBLY POWERFUL AND AS WE NOTED AT THE BEGINNING OF OUR CONVERSATION, JUST A PIECE OF THE WORK THAT SHE HAS WRITTEN FOR YEARS AND THAT YOU THANKFULLY CONTINUE TO TRANSLATE AS WELL.

YOU, YOURSELF ARE AN IRANIAN WRITER.

YOU HAVE SPENT THE MAJORITY OF YOUR LIFE OUTSIDE OF THE COUNTRY.

I DON'T WANT TO ASSUME THAT YOU CAN SPEAK HER MAHVASH BUT I AM WONDERING, IF SHE WERE TO SPEAK TO THE IRANIAN PEOPLE RIGHT NOW, WHAT WOULD YOU GUESS SHE WOULD TELL THEM?

>> WELL, I HAVE A FEELING HER BOOK IS WHAT SHE WOULD TELL THEM.

SHE REALLY HAS --THIS BOOK IS A GIFT TO EVERYBODY, OF COURSE, BUT IT IS A LEGACY.

SHE IS REMINDING THE IRANIAN PEOPLE THAT THEY HAVE, IN THEIR OWN HANDS, THIS LEGACY OF SEEING HOPE AND DESPAIR, SEEING FREEDOM EVEN IN PRISON, OF NOT BEING VICTIMS BUT BEING ABLE TO CONSTRUCT IN THIS INCREDIBLE WAY WITH THE RESILIENCE THAT WAS ENDURED THROUGH DIFFICULTY AND EMERGE.

THAT IS WHAT SHE WANTS TO GIVE TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, I BELIEVE.

THAT IS THE MESSAGE OF HER BOOK.

>> STRENGTH AND COMPASSION.

WE ARE SO GRATEFUL TO YOU, BAHIYYIH NAKHJAVANI, FOR TRANSLATING IT AND BRINGING IT TO US.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

IT IS A HUGE PRIVILEGE.

>> NOW TO AN INTIMATE LOOK AT FAMILY, ROOFS, AND THE AMERICAN DREAM.

JOURNALIST KARLA MURTHY 'S FATHER LEFT INDIA FOR THE U. S. IN SEARCH OF A BETTER LIFE.

THROUGH A SERIES OF PHONE CALLS RECORDED OVER THE COURSE OF TWO DECADES, HER FATHER SHARED HIS EXPERIENCES BEING A FIRST GENERATION AMERICAN CAUGHT BETWEEN TWO WORLDS.

>> WHEN I USED TO SLEEP ON THE STREET, LOOKING AT THE STARS, SOME DAYS, SOME HOW, MY LIFE WOULD CHANGE.

>> YOU ANSWERED MY PRAYERS.

WHY NOW?

>> NOW, THESE RECORDINGS AND OLD FOOTAGE HAVE CULMINATED IN MURTHY'S DIRECTORIAL DEBUT AND SHE JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO TALK ABOUT WHAT RETRACING HER FATHER'S STEPS HAVE TAUGHT HER.

>> KARLA MURTHY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU DIRECTED A REALLY PERSONAL FILM WITH YOUR FATHER CALLED THE GAS STATION ATTENDANT AND IT IS JUST THIS BEAUTIFUL LOOK WITH ALL OF THESE RECORDINGS AND PHOTOGRAPHS YOU HAVE OF YOUR LIFE WITH HIM .

WHAT QUESTIONS MADE YOU WANT TO DO THIS FILM IN THE FIRST PLACE?

>> THIS FILM WAS BORN OUT OF THAT NEED AND THAT DESIRE TO REALLY UNDERSTAND MY DAD AND HIS LIFE AND TO UNDERSTAND THE DECISIONS HE MADE.

IT WAS A CHANCE FOR ME TO GO BACK TO STORIES I HAD HEARD MY ENTIRE LIFE OF HOW HE CAME TO THIS COUNTRY FROM INDIA.

AS A KID WHEN I HEARD THE STORIES, IT WAS LIKE A FAIRYTALE WITH A HAPPY ENDING AND I KIND OF EQUATE IT TO LYRICS OF A SONG THAT YOU MEMORIZE AS A KID AND THEN ONE DAY YOU REALIZE WHAT THOSE LYRICS ACTUALLY MEAN.

I HAD THAT MOMENT AS I WAS MAKING THIS FILM AND TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HIS LIFE AND GOING BACK TO WHAT IT WAS LIKE FOR HIM TO LIVE ON THE STREETS OF INDIA AND HOW THAT EXPERIENCE SHAPED WHO HE WAS HERE IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> HERE I AM RELIVING THE PAST WHILE TRYING TO LIVE IN THE PRESENT.

WONDERING WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A GOOD FATHER, A GOOD DAUGHTER, A GOOD MOTHER.

>> I LOVE YOU.

>> DAD?

HOW DID YOU GET UP AND KEEP GOING?

>> SO, YOUR FATHER GREW UP IN INDIA AT THE AGE OF 10, HE RUNS AWAY FROM HOME.

WHAT KIND OF LIFE DID HE LEAD BEFORE HE GOT TO THE U. S. ?

HOW DID THAT SHAPE HIS FUTURE HERE?

>> YEAH.

I WAS --BEING ABLE TO MAKE THIS FILM ALLOWED ME TO REALLY TRY AND PUT MYSELF IN THE SHOES OF MY DAD AND THEN TRYING TO FILL IN --MAKE IT MUCH MORE OF A VISCERAL EXPERIENCE.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT OCCURRED TO ME AS I WAS MAKING THIS FILM WAS FOR HIM TO SURVIVE ON THE STREETS --HE RAN AWAY FROM HOME WHEN HE WAS 10 YEARS OLD AND WAS LIVING ALL OVER INDIA.

TO SURVIVE, HE HAD TO KEEP GOING.

HE HAD TO KEEP GOING FROM JOB TO JOB JUST TO SURVIVE.

WHEN HE CAME TO THE STATES, HE DID THE SAME THING BUT FOR ME AS A TEENAGER, GROWING UP, I WAS SO MYSTIFIED.

I WANTED MY DAD TO HAVE ONE JOB BUT HE KEPT GOING FROM JOB TO JOB TO JOB.

I WAS LIKE, WHY CAN'T HE BE LIKE OTHER DADS AND STICK WITH THE ONE THING?

IT OCCURRED TO ME THAT THAT IS HOW HE SURVIVED IN INDIA AND THOSE EXPERIENCES IMPRINTED ON HIM AND THAT WAS JUST A SURVIVAL SKILL.

HE CONTINUES TO USE IT HERE.

>> THERE IS ONE SCENE, YOUR SON WHEN YOU ARE MAKING THIS FILM IS ABOUT AS OLD AS YOUR DAD WAS.

AS I WAS MAKING THIS FILM, MY YOUNGER SON TURNED 10.

IT OCCURRED TO ME, MY SON HUNGRY, LIVING, SLEEPING ON THE SIDEWALK.

IT BROKE MY HEART.

AND, TO IMAGINE THAT MY DAD -- IT TOOK ME HAVING MY OWN KID TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IT WAS LIKE FOR MY DAD AND THAT IS TRUE FOR A LOT OF FAMILIES.

AS YOU GET OLDER, YOU START TO --YOU BLAME YOUR PARENTS FOR EVERYTHING GROWING UP AND THEN WHEN YOU BECOME APPARENT, YOU KIND OF GET IT.

I HAD THAT MOMENT WITH HIM.

THERE WAS AN IMAGERY OF A BOY RUNNING IN THE FILM TO KIND OF REPRESENT MY DAD AND HIS RESILIENCE AND HIS ABILITY TO KEEP GOING.

THAT WASN'T MY SON.

AS I MADE THE FILM AND I REALIZED, THAT SHOULD BE FOOTAGE OF MY KIDS BECAUSE MY DAD'S WILL TO SURVIVE IN INDIA IS WHAT LED TO US SURVIVING, US EXISTING IN THE WORLD AND MY KIDS.

I WANTED TO SHOW HOW THE LINEAGE AND THE INHERITANCE OF THAT STORY MANIFESTED AND EMBODIED IN MY OWN CHILDREN.

>> THIS IS AN INCREDIBLE MOMENT OF LUCK.

TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS AND HOW THAT CHANGED THE COURSE OF HIS LIFE AND LED TO YOURS.

>> I REALLY WANTED TO EXPLORE THESE MACRO MICRO FORCES THAT AFFECTED -- >> GOING BACK TO THOSE STORIES AND PAINTING THEM DIFFERENT BASED ON WHO I AM RIGHT NOW AND IN THIS MOMENT.

I ALSO WONDER WHY YOU CHOSE SPECIFICALLY TO FOCUS ON THE GAS STATION ATTENDANT.

IN A WAY, IT SHATTERS THIS MODEL MINORITY MYTH.

THIS MUST BE THE STORY OF A SUCCESSFUL RAGS TO RICHES STORY.

A KID WAS HOMELESS.

THAT WOULD BE EASY FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE TO BELIEVE.

>> I TRY NOT TO LET MY MIND GO TO THOSE PLACES.

I COULD NOT STOP THINKING OF HOW PEOPLE WOULD SEE MY DAD NOW IT IS THE BUTT OF A JOKE.

>> THE SCAPEGOAT >> EVERY TIME I SEE YOU, I HOPE YOU DISAPPEAR.

>> THIS?

>> I KEPT THOSE THOUGHTS TO MYSELF.

>> WHY DID YOU SPECIFICALLY SAY THIS IS THE JOB WE ARE GOING TO TALK ABOUT?

OBVIOUSLY, THROUGH THESE RECORDINGS, HE WAS WORKING THE NIGHT SHIFT.

>> I THINK IT WAS EXACTLY THAT.

I WANTED TO INVITE AUDIENCES TO GET TO KNOW THIS PERSON THAT THEY PROBABLY SEE EVERY DAY IN THEIR LIFE AND JUST PASS BY, THE GAS STATION ATTENDANT, THE CONVENIENCE STORE CLERK.

THERE ARE THESE TROPES, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IMMIGRANT NARRATIVES.

IT IS LIKE, WE ARE OFTEN DEFINED BY THE WORK THAT WE DO AS A GAS STATION ATTENDANT.

WE GET THE JOB DONE.

THERE IS ALSO THE BIG TROOP, ALSO THE THINGS --I REALLY WANTED MY FILM TO SHOW SOMEONE, TO INVITE PEOPLE TO SEE THE EXPANSE OF THEIR LIFE AND NOT LIKE A NARROW WINDOW BUT , MY DAD MAKES MISTAKES.

HE IS HUMAN AND FLAWED LIKE THE REST OF US AND I WANTED YOU TO STILL FALL IN LOVE WITH HIM AND MAYBE FEEL LIKE YOU COULD HAVE BEEN HIS FRIEND BY THE END OF THE FILM.

>> HELLO?

>> DAD?

>> HI.

IT IS KARLA.

>> HELLO, SWEETIE.

>> HOW'S IT GOING?

>> HELLO, MY LOVE.

>> IS IT BUSY?

>> IT COMES AND GOES.

>> IT HAS KIND OF SLOW DOWN.

I READ THE PAPER AND KEEP MYSELF BUSY.

>> ARE YOU GOING TO TRY TO CLOSE THE STORE?

>> I DON'T KNOW YET.

WE SPENT SOME MONEY FOR ADVERTISEMENTS AND IT DID NOT WORK.

>> NOT EVEN PEOPLE FROM THE CHURCH?

>> NOT EVEN PEOPLE FROM THE CHURCH.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS YOU TALK ABOUT WHICH I DON'T SEE PEOPLE IN OUR SALVATION COMMUNITY TALK ABOUT IS THE FINANCIAL MISTAKES THAT YOU MADE, THE DEBT THAT HE INCURRED, THAT YOU HELPED BAIL HIM OUT OF.

THERE IS A LOT OF STIGMA AND SHAME BY TALKING ABOUT THAT AND I AM ASSUMING THIS WAS AN ACTIVE CHOICE FOR YOU TO DISCUSS THIS.

>> IT WAS.

A LOT OF THIS FILM IS ABOUT RECONCILING DIFFICULT MOMENTS THAT I HAD WITH MY DAD AND THAT WAS ONE OF THEM.

ALSO, AS I HAVE BEEN TRAVELING WITH THE FILM, WE PREMIERED LAST YEAR AND I HAVE BEEN ALL OVER THE COUNTRY WITH A FILM OF ALL DIFFERENT AUDIENCES AND SO MANY PEOPLE I LIKE, THAT HAPPENED TO MY FAMILY TOO.

IT IS SO COMMON, THESE FINANCIAL HARDSHIPS AND IS DIFFICULT MONEY SITUATIONS WITHIN FAMILIES THAT NO ONE WANTS TO TALK ABOUT.

I FEEL REALLY GRATIFIED FOR PUTTING THAT IN THERE AND OPENING UP BACKDOOR FOR PEOPLE TO TALK ABOUT THAT STUFF MORE BECAUSE ONCE IT IS OUT IN THE OPEN AND THERE IS SO MUCH GUILT AND SHAME ABOUT THIS KIND OF STUFF AND JUST TO KEEP IT WITHIN FAMILIES BUT MAYBE WE COULD HAVE JUST HELPED EACH OTHER OUT RIGHT NOW IN THE SITUATIONS WITH FINANCIAL HARDSHIP AND I FEEL LIKE THERE IS SO MUCH ROOM FOR CONVERSATION AND DIALOGUE ABOUT THAT THAT CAN BE HEALING FOR FAMILIES TOO.

>> YEAH.

WHAT DID YOU FIGURE OUT WAS YOUR DAD'S, I GUESS, BIG AMERICAN DREAM AND MAYBE WHAT DOES THAT TEACH YOU ABOUT HOW YOURS MIGHT HAVE BEEN INFLUENCED BY IT, HOW DIFFERENT IT IS?

>> THE AMERICAN DREAM.

IT IS A DREAM.

THE AMERICAN DREAM IS, YOU GET THE GOLDEN TICKET TO COME HERE.

YOU LOOK --WORK REALLY HARD.

DON'T BREAK ANY LAWS AND THEN YOU CAN MAKE IT.

PULL YOURSELF UP BY THE BOOTSTRAPS AND THEN, BAM, MODEL MINORITY.

IT IS TRUE FOR SOME PEOPLE BUT NOT FOR MANY.

FOR ME, IT IS UNDERSTANDING IN MY DAD'S EYES WAS VERY DIFFERENT.

YES, HE DID GET THE GREAT GOLDEN TICKET TO COME HERE BUT IT CONTINUED TO BE A STRUGGLE FOR HIM AND FOR OUR FAMILIES FINANCIALLY BUT ALSO, I MEAN, I ALSO OWE A LOT TO THIS COUNTRY.

I MOTHER CAME HERE TO WORK AS A NURSE IN THE PHILIPPINES AND I WOULD NOT BE HERE IF IT WEREN'T FOR THAT OPPORTUNITY FOR THEM TO COME TO THIS COUNTRY.

MY KIDS WOULD NOT EXIST.

MY HUSBAND'S FAMILY IS FROM LEBANON.

THEY CAME HERE TO FLEE THE CIVIL WAR.

THERE IS THIS PROMISE OF THAT, OF THE AMERICAN DREAM.

I HAVE A VERY COMPLICATED RELATIONSHIP WITH IT.

>> IN HIS WORDS, HE GOT WHAT HE WANTED.

>> WHEN A USED TWO SLEEP ON THE STREET, LOOKING AT THE STARS , I WOULD SAY SOMEDAY, SOMEHOW, MY LIFE WOULD CHANGE.

I WANT TO HAVE A FAMILY WITH MY WIFE.

I CAN HOLD HANDS WITH MY KIDS.

THAT WAS MY DREAM.

>> HE WANTED A FAMILY AND HE WANTED --IT IS SOMETHING THAT HE DIDN'T GET A CHANCE TO HAVE AS A KID.

>> IT WENT BACK DOWN TO BASICS, TO HAVING A ROOF OVER OUR HEADS, WHICH HE DIDN'T HAVE AS A KID.

HIS DREAM IS TO HAVE A FAMILY AND BRING THEM BACK TO INDIA AND WALK THROUGH THE GARDENS.

THAT WAS HIS DREAM.

THAT IS WHAT HE SAID AND WE DID THAT.

IN MANY WAYS, BEING ABLE TO HAVE A FAMILY AND TO GIVE THEM THE BASICS WAS ALL HE NEEDED.

STILL, IT WAS STRUGGLE.

IT WASN'T LIKE HE --IT WAS STILL DIFFICULT.

>> YEAH.

YOU START THE FILM OUT WITH A QUOTE BY LILA MILANI.

HUMANITY IS FUNDAMENTALLY A STORY OF MIGRATION.

WHY WAS THAT IMPORTANT?

RIGHT NOW, THERE IS A CONVERSATION ABOUT IMMIGRATION, MIGRATION IN THIS COUNTRY AND ALL OVER THE PLANET.

>> IT WAS ONE OF THOSE MOMENTS WHEN I WAS THINKING ABOUT THE WORLD THAT MY FILM WOULD BE BORN INTO AND I REALLY WANTED PEOPLE TO SEE THE UNIVERSAL -- TO BE INTRODUCED TO THIS FILM IN A VERY UNIVERSAL WAY AND TO SEE THAT MY FATHER'S LIFE AND HIS STORY IS VERY UNIVERSAL IN TERMS OF IMMIGRATION AND MIGRATION AND, I DON'T KNOW, THIS IS A LITTLE BIT OFF OF IT BUT IT REMINDS ME ANYTIME ANYONE GOES UP TO SPACE AND AND THEY HAVE THIS EPIPHANY LIKE , WE ARE ALL ONE WORLD AND WE ARE ALL ONE BEING AND FOR ME, I WAS HAVING THOSE MOMENTS A LOT WHEN I WAS MAKING THIS FILM AND THINKING ABOUT, HOW CAN YOU SEE THIS FILM IN A MUCH MORE UNIVERSAL WAY?

IT IS TRUE THAT WE ARE A SPECIES THAT IS CONSTANTLY MIGRATING.

IT IS NOT UNNATURAL BUT YET, WE ARE HAVING THESE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT BORDERS AND I JUST WANTED PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS A HISTORY THAT GOES FAR BACK.

THIS IS PART OF WHO WE ARE AS A HUMAN SPECIES, TO BE MIGRATING AND WE DO THIS OUT OF NEED, OUT OF TRYING TO SURVIVE, NOT TO TAKE FROM OTHER COUNTRIES BUT AS A MEANS OF SURVIVAL.

>> THIS WAS KIND OF A LOVE LETTER TO YOUR DAD AND IT REALLY PUT A LOT OF THINGS HE WANTED TO GET THROUGH.

YOU HAVE SAID BEFORE THAT YOU WANT US, IN THE AUDIENCE, TO GET TO KNOW HIM AND BY THE END OF IT, YOU TOTALLY SUCCEEDED IN THAT THERE IS A PART OF ME THAT GRIEVES FOR YOUR DAD.

I AM VERY HAPPY I GOT A CHANCE TO GET THIS GLIMPSE INTO HIS LIFE AND IT IS REALLY REMARKABLE.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU.

I ALSO WANT THIS FILM TO BE A CALL TO ACTION FOR PEOPLE WATCHING IT, TO ALSO GET TO KNOW THEIR PARENTS' STORIES IN A VERY INTIMATE WAY AND, YEAH, TO OPEN THAT DOOR FOR DIALOGUE INTERGENERATIONAL HE.

IT DOESN'T EVEN HAVE TO BE IMMIGRANT HISTORY.

THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS THAT YOU CAN LEARN FROM DIFFERENT GENERATIONS AND TO OPEN THAT DIALOGUE AND TO REALLY OPEN THE DOOR TO BECOME JUST MORE EMPATHETIC WITH EACH OTHER.

WE JUST NEED A LOT MORE EMPATHY IN THIS WORLD RIGHT NOW.

>> KARLA MURTHY, DIRECTOR OF THE FILM THE GAS STATION ATTENDANT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR THOUGHTS.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

> >> FINALLY, FRANCE HAS BEEN BATTLING DEVASTATED WILDFIRES FOR WEEKS AND ACCORDING TO THE COUNTRY'S PRIME MINISTER, THEY ARE FINALLY UNDER CONTROL .

IT IS A FEAT MADE POSSIBLE IN PART WITH THE HELP OF UKRAINIAN FRIENDS WHO DESPITE FACING THEIR OWN CRISIS AT HOME TRAVELED THE TWO HOURS TO THE WEST OF BORDEAUX OVER THE WEEKEND.

THERE, THEY JOINED THEIR FRENCH COUNTERPARTS IN EFFORTS TO EXTINGUISH A MASSIVE BLAZE SPANNING ROUGHLY 42,000 HECTARES .

AMONG ALL INTERNATIONAL PARTNERS ASSISTING WITH FIREFIGHTER EFFORTS IN THE AREA, THE 70 PERSON UKRAINIAN FIREFIGHTING SQUAD IS THE LARGEST TEAM DEPLOYED, DISPLAYING AN ACT OF COURAGE AND GENEROSITY TO AN ALLY IN A TIME OF NEED.

> >> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.

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